Vaughan Gething: If I can give a specific example—thank you for taking the intervention—on the challenges that the current arrangements provide: when, with the previous chief executive of the community health councils movement, there was a challenge about his conduct, community health councils themselves couldn't take action because he was an employee of the national health service. Powys had to agree a...
Vaughan Gething: An arm's-length corporate body, able to enter into its own contracts, its own arrangements, its own leases, is significantly more independent than a body that is hosted by Powys Teaching Health Board. All of the community health councils' staff at present are employees of the national health service through Powys health board. Now, to move those people to an independent, arm's-length...
Vaughan Gething: Thank you, Llywydd. I have listened again to the debate on these amendments, as, indeed, this has been a significant part of the passage of both the White Paper and, indeed, through Stages 1 and 2. Now, I do, though, recognise that we're broadly at the same starting point, which is how we ensure that the citizen voice body represents the interests of people throughout Wales and is accessible...
Vaughan Gething: Move.
Vaughan Gething: Thank you, Llywydd. I'm happy to move the only amendment in this group. Members will be aware that, as introduced, the Bill did not require the Auditor General for Wales to come to an opinion on the regularity of the citizen voice body's accounts. Amendment 13 requires the auditor general to come to that opinion on whether the expenditure to which the accounts relate has been incurred...
Vaughan Gething: Thank you, Llywydd. Unfortunately, I don't support the amendment in the name of Angela Burns. I've been clear on the importance that I attach to establishing a citizen voice body that represents the interests of people across both health and social services. One of the fundamental aims of the Bill is to establish a new national body to represent the citizen voice, with a renewed profile and...
Vaughan Gething: The amendment places a duty on Welsh Ministers to make regulations to require the citizen voice body to hold indemnity cover for the benefit of staff and volunteers. I agree that the citizen voice body should decide and plan how to organise its indemnity cover, as should any public body. However, a provision of the type that is suggested is not, in my view, appropriate, and I cannot therefore...
Vaughan Gething: Formally.
Vaughan Gething: Formally.
Vaughan Gething: Moved.
Vaughan Gething: Move.
Vaughan Gething: Formally.
Vaughan Gething: Moved.
Vaughan Gething: Yes.
Vaughan Gething: I think this is quite an extraordinary point. You say that there's a conflict of interest for new arrangements and an entirely separate body, but you're prepared to fight for a current position where those people are employees of the national health service. That, to me, is not a position that holds any kind of logical argument to it at all. I recognise that we don't agree in terms of the...
Vaughan Gething: There's a fairly straightforward disagreement about whether the Assembly or, indeed, the Government should be the ultimate appointer of these people, but I don't accept that the practice of the way that we have run public appointments through Wales in the last 20 years, or indeed a range of posts, actually holds water for the argument that this would somehow undermine the independence of...
Vaughan Gething: We're talking here about what happens when people argue about the appointments process at the start, and then the reality of it. Every one of those people who've held those commissioner roles have not felt constrained in their independence.
Vaughan Gething: I thank Members for their comments and I recognise that we may rehearse a number of points in the next groups of amendments. I want to return directly to the points made about the independence or otherwise of the citizen voice body, as opposed to the current community health councils. Hearing the phrase, 'however you spin it, you can't have a body having its independence questioned', well,...
Vaughan Gething: Thank you. I'll speak first to the Government amendments that I move, and then turn to consider the other amendments that have been listed in this group. The Bill as introduced did not include provisions for the chief executive of the citizen voice body to be a board member. That was questioned during the scrutiny process by the board of CHCs, and I'm grateful to them for raising the...
Vaughan Gething: Thank you, Llywydd. I have listened to the rationale for laying the amendments tabled in this group, both at Stage 2 and again today. In relation to amendment 39, which, for reasons that I'll explain again, I don't agree with, the purpose and the effect is quite clear: any failure by an NHS body to comply with the duty of candour procedure regulations, or with the provisions is sections 5 to...
