Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:03 pm on 8 June 2016.
First Minister, I think we have to welcome the tone of the Secretary of State for Wales’s statement because it does indicate a willingness to work to improve to actually achieve a common objective of actually working legislation. If that actually happens, then that will be a good thing. Can I say that I do have considerable concerns about the approach to the jurisdiction issue? Because, for me, it actually goes to the core of the legislation and we do not want a situation where we continually have to try to work out the relationship between our powers, the laws of England and Wales, and the jurisdiction point. That was a problem that the last Secretary of State for Wales had considerable difficulty with. There has been an attempt in this draft Bill to deal with that, but there is this rather strange passage in the legislation, which says the purpose is
‘to recognise the ability of the Assembly and the Welsh Ministers to make law forming part of the law of England and Wales.’
Now, it seems to me that that just perpetuates the fundamental misunderstanding of the jurisdiction issue. There is no mystique to it. There is nothing magical about it. All the jurisdiction of England and Wales is is basically laws passed in Westminster applied to England and Wales as the area in which the jurisdiction exists, but we now have an additional legislature, and that is Wales. If we are going to recognise and create a framework through statute that says, ‘We recognise the specific existence of Welsh legislation’, it cannot be within the law of England and Wales, because you have the UK Parliament, which now sits—and you have English votes for English laws—as effectively an English Parliament passing legislation solely in England, and the legislation passed in Wales is not just what we pass, but it is also the legislation passed in Westminster, but only applies to England or does not apply to Wales. And unless that fundamental contradiction is actually resolved, we are going to continue having these arguments; we will not be resolving this and we’ll be discussing this year on year, which is something that we clearly want to see an end to. And the same issue is perpetuated. I hear what you say in respect of the judicial impact assessments, and I think you’re absolutely right on them in terms of their effect, but if you have one for Welsh legislation, you should have one for English legislation as well. So, it’s getting that balance right.
Now, I think the issue is fudged to some extent, because the proposal from the Secretary of State for Wales is to establish a committee that will actually look into these. Now, my biggest concern is that we have a committee that’s going to consider something that certainly I think and, I think, many people think is fundamental to getting this legislation right, and we need a timescale on it. We need a framework within which it’s going to work, because we need to actually resolve this as part of this legislation. It cannot be something that has to be tacked on later on. I was wondering what discussions you might have had or will be able to have in respect of that particular proposal from the Secretary of State for Wales on the formation of the committee, the timescale and the framework within which it is going to work.