3. 3. Statement: The Wales Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:06 pm on 8 June 2016.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:06, 8 June 2016

Could I thank the Member for the way in which he has explained the complexity, in his own way, of the current situation? There is no timescale that the Secretary of State has put forward. What is strange is that nobody has argued that the jurisdiction will remain for ever and a day. Everyone says that it will have to change at some point in the future. The question is, should that issue be dealt with now or dealt with at a time when pressure is so great that it has to happen quickly? And the history of Welsh devolution is that, when pressure builds, action is taken, rather than steps being taken before the pressure emerges.

He is right to say that this is not some kind of totemic issue. The UK doesn’t exist as a jurisdiction; it never has done. Scotland has always existed as a separate jurisdiction, Northern Ireland since 1920, England and Wales only since 1536. It’s a long time, but only since 1536, and, since that time, a legislature has been established here in Wales. On that basis, the jurisdiction normally follows the legislature, but that is not the position that they find themselves in now. It’s almost as if they’re trying to make the laws fit the jurisdiction, rather than the other way around. The previous Bill, the problem with it was that the restrictions that were being placed, which actually took us back to a position before 2011, were in order to try and squeeze the law of England and Wales into the jurisdiction of England and Wales. Now it seems we have a situation where the jurisdiction will exist pretty much in name only, but, over the years, in many areas, substantially different laws will be created. To my mind, that’s not a durable solution. Yes, you can manage it in the short term, possibly, but, in the longer term, it’s not going to happen. We are already in a situation—as I’ve listened to judges who’ve told me this—where lawyers, be they solicitors or barristers, have come to Wales and argued the wrong law, because they assume that, because they’re in the same jurisdiction, the law is the same. Now, I would hit them with a wasted costs order—if that sounds too harsh, it’s probably why I’m not a judge—just to get the message across. But that’s a problem now, and unless the jurisdiction issue is dealt with in some way—not necessarily a separate jurisdiction, but a distinct jurisdiction—that problem will only continue in the future.