7. 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: The Wales Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:43 pm on 15 June 2016.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 5:43, 15 June 2016

That is the fiscal framework. But there needs to be an agreement in place so that Wales doesn’t lose out, if I can put it in those terms. At the moment, of course, the Bill as it’s phrased could impose a duty on us without a proper framework being in place. I don’t think that’s right, and I’m sure Members will agree that there needs to be a framework put in place so that the people of Wales do not lose out.

Let me deal with Mark Isherwood. Now, he made—[Interruption.]. No, no—he deserves a response, in fairness. The difficulties with the arguments he puts forward are these: most of the criminal law will be devolved. Most of it. So we’ll face a situation, if he has his way, in 20 or 30 years’ time, potentially, where the making of criminal law will be largely for this institution, but its enforcement would be carried out by the police, who’ll be responsible solely to Whitehall. That doesn’t make sense, to my mind. So, in other words, you have enforcement authorities who have no responsibility or accountability at all to the legislature that passes the laws in the first place. That can’t be right, surely? I’m sure he sees that.

He sees this as a separatist argument, well, I don’t recall him arguing strongly that policing should not be devolved to Northern Ireland for that very reason. I don’t recall him arguing strongly that policing should be removed from the competence of the Scottish Government and Parliament because it would lead, inevitably, to Scottish independence. I don’t recall him demanding that the Mayor of London should have his powers removed in terms of the Metropolitan Police because of the undermining of the United Kingdom that that would inevitably cause. This is not a separatist argument. This is an argument that Wales should be treated in the same way as Scotland and Northern Ireland. [Inaudible] Of course.