Well, his party in Scotland are in favour of policing being dealt with in Scotland. So, are his party in Scotland then a bunch of separatists, using that argument? I don’t think we can have those double standards any more when it comes to devolution for Wales. As I’ve said before, Wales should be treated along the same principles and the same lines as Scotland and indeed Northern Ireland.

So, for me, the question is this: he makes the point that police and crime commissioners represent an element of devolution, and there’s an element of truth in what he says. But, for me, it’s a matter for this institution as to whether there should be police and crime commissioners or not. In fact, we had no choice; they were imposed on us by Parliament in Westminster, when in fact the decision could have been that of the people of Wales. They may have decided that they wanted them. But that decision was not placed before the people of Wales. I remind him as well, of course, that all those candidates who stood in the police and crime commissioner elections who did not want policing devolved all lost, including of course his own police and crime commissioner in Mid and West Wales who not only did not want policing devolved, but wanted the fire service un-devolved and lost by some margin. That should tell him where the people of Wales are on this issue.

The wider issue of the justice system has been raised. I know that the leader of the opposition has strong views on the probation service, as somebody who worked in the probation service, and I agree with much of what she has said. She will know that the draft Bill that we put forward looked at the devolution of the justice system, but a few years hence. The reason why, for me, that’s sensible is that police devolution can happen fairly easily. That’s just simply taking over a structure that already exists. When it comes to the justice system, particularly the prisons, Wales has never had an integrated prison system, unlike Scotland and Northern Ireland. It would have to be created and that takes time. So, more work needs to be done in terms of how the justice system could be shaped in the future. But I share her concerns about the probation service. I share her concerns that justice is no longer available to people.

I worked in a different part of the system to her, and I remember days when people did get representation. They don’t now. The courts are full of litigants in person now. The law has to be explained to them. That means, of course, that quite often in the family courts, you have people who want to ensure that they’re able to see their children, their children might be in care, they are litigants in person and they’re up against lawyers from local authorities. That didn’t happen in the past because legal aid was available. That’s not fair. We have the criminal courts full of people who have no representation; the law has to be explained to them and they’re up against prosecutors who are lawyers. That’s not fair. It also means that the courts now spend a huge amount of time explaining the law to people and that slows the courts down. So, in fact, if you save money, apparently, by cutting legal aid, it just means more cost in the court system. What’s happened with legal aid has been scandalous. Representation has gone.

The justice system has given the appearance that Wales is some kind of addendum to the justice system. There are far fewer courts and justice is far more difficult to access now. There are arguments, to me, to look at the devolution of the justice system, although I have to say that, from my perspective, this is something that would take some time. The separate jurisdiction would mean a separate courts system. I think it’s an elegant solution to have a formally distinct jurisdiction, but share the court system. But, not share the court system in terms of not having any say in it and not share a court system that’s administered entirely from Whitehall, but a genuinely shared court system that can provide a system of justice to the people of Wales.

Well, we know that there’s some debate to go in terms of this Bill. There are many areas where there will be agreement. There are some areas where, clearly, there’s going to be little agreement. Does the Bill provide an opportunity to take Wales forward in terms of further devolved powers? The answer is ‘yes’, but the sad thing is that it can’t be a sustainable settlement because of the resistance to things like the jurisdiction, the resistance to things like policing. For me, it would be better to take the opportunity now to have a Bill that can last the test of time rather then find ourselves, as I suspect we will, back in five years’ time looking at the issues that this Bill in its current form was unable to address. I think that’s a shame, but I do look forward to the debates both within this Parliament and the UK Parliament in order to make sure that we get the right powers to deliver for the people of Wales.