1. 1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:37 pm on 28 June 2016.
We now move to questions from the party leaders, and the first question to the First Minister this week is from the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.
Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, I’d like to identify first of all with the sentiments that have been expressed by other Members—there is no room for any intolerance, and, in particular, racism, in any part of our country, whether it be here in Wales or any part of the United Kingdom. And I stand shoulder to shoulder with any Member and any institution who is standing to defend those liberties, to make sure that people can speak freely and openly in any part of this country. And we cannot allow any festering sentiment to actually contaminate the democracy we hold so dear, to ourselves and to this great country of ours.
First Minister, I’d like to ask you—. Last week, we had the referendum, the result is understood, the consequences are unfolding before us, and negotiations will start shortly. On the weekend, you said that this wasn’t your election, on the ‘Sunday Supplement’ programme. It is a vital referendum that has just taken place, and, in fact, in credit to you, you did say, back at the start of the referendum campaign, this was the most important vote for a generation and a vote forever. Can you assure me that that was merely a media slip on ‘Sunday Supplement’, and you did engage fully, and you didn’t look at this referendum as someone else’s referendum to fight?
Well, it’s not the ground that I would have chosen, or the timing—I told the Prime Minister that. But it’s important that we’ve had the referendum, and the result is now known.
It’s hardly a ringing endorsement then, is it, First Minister? I do think it’s important to understand how the Welsh Government has been preparing for the outcome of the referendum. Obviously, the Chancellor has confirmed that the UK Government, irrespective of its position in that referendum, was preparing for both scenarios. And, obviously, there are people in receipt of European moneys and grants, and that will continue, so long as we are part of, and paying into, the European pot. But what work was undertaken and commissioned by you as First Minister, within Welsh Government, to make sure that both outcomes were modelled and the Welsh Government was in the best place possible to assist with information and support, whatever the outcome of that referendum was?
Well, that’ll be part of the debate later on. But, I can say that the outcome is impossible to model. We have no idea what the final deal will look like. Until we have an understanding of that, do we know whether there’ll be access to the single market? We know that the people of Wales voted to leave the EU. Beyond that, we don’t know what kind of model we’re going to get in two years’ time and until we see that model it’ll be very difficult to pass judgment upon it. I know he is in favour of free movement of people; he said that today. He’s also in favour of Welsh money being kept in London, in the Treasury, which is another thing he said today. I have to say to him that many people said to me on the doorstep, when they were asked about European money funding projects in their communities, they said, ‘It was our money anyway’. I have written to the Prime Minister saying I expect every single penny—every single penny—that we will lose when we cease to be eligible for European funding to be made up by the UK Government and that money to come to Wales. He has said today that he does not mind if that money is locked up in the Treasury in Westminster. This money is the money that is there for the people of Wales. It is not for the UK Treasury or for him to interfere with their rights.
First Minister, I did not say ‘locked up in the Treasury’. I said there will be a new model for the way Government undertakes itself in any part of the United Kingdom. I have asked you two questions today. The first question was: did you commit yourself fully to the referendum? You didn’t respond to that question. I asked you what modelling the Welsh Government had undertaken to deal with the outcome of the referendum—not the negotiations; the outcome of the referendum—because there is interaction on a daily basis with organisations across Wales who have been supported by the Welsh Government and are in receipt of European money? And that is a perfectly reasonable question to ask: what preparatory work was put in place by the Welsh Government to actually deal with both eventualities out of the referendum? You have not given me an answer on that.
On the third question then, if I’m not going to get any answers from you today, will you reach out to all sections of political opinion to make sure that their views are represented in the negotiations going forward from Wales, because clearly, from the parties in front of me, those views were not represented in the outcome of the referendum? And it is important that all opinions are taken into account so that Wales’s voice can be heard clearly, loudly and, above all, making sure that the commitments we require are returned to Wales, and that does mean that every penny that Wales is due is received here in Wales and spent here in Wales.
Well, I can quote his exact words directly at him. He said, ‘Why should the Welsh Government handle the money?’ It is exactly what he said in the press conference, and he said, ‘Why shouldn’t the money come straight from Westminster, bypassing the elected legislature and Government of the people of Wales?’ He has gone on about the need for Britain, as he put it in his argument, to enjoy its freedom and its sovereignty, as he put it. He thinks it is pathetic that the people of Wales should not have access to money they have access to now. He needs, as the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, to start thinking as if he was Welsh and to start looking at things from a Welsh perspective because, I tell you what, he’s in a different position to UKIP in fairness to them, because UKIP have been saying, ‘Yes, every single penny of that money should come to Wales and be spent in Wales’. He isn’t. He isn’t, and it’s about time we had some clearer thinking from the Conservatives. Yes, I know people voted to leave. Nothing will change that. Nothing can get in the way of that. He has absolutely no idea what happens next—absolutely no idea. We will be explaining the way forward as far as we are concerned, bearing in mind what people have said—there is no getting away from what people have said—but, as I say, from our perspective, this is money that has been coming to Wales, this is money that should still come to Wales. That is the right of the Welsh people. It’s a right that he does not respect.
The leader of the opposition, Leanne Wood.
Diolch, Lywydd. It’s with a heavy heart that I scrutinise you today, First Minister. I’ll respond in full to the EU debate later on. But, it’s important to focus on what you are responsible for now and, in particular, the delivery of public services, despite the wider political turmoil. Can I first of all say and put on record that we should all condemn the reported increase in racist incidents since the referendum occurred? Racism has no place in Welsh society and I know that you agree with me on that.
Moving on now to the NHS, our NHS benefits from a mixture of home-grown and international staff. Around 500 doctors from the European Union work within the Welsh NHS. Over coming weeks, they will be carrying out operations, saving lives, healing the sick, as though the referendum never, ever happened. Can you first of all tell us how much extra money you’re expecting for the Welsh NHS as a result of the vow made by the ‘leave’ campaign? Secondly, would you be prepared to communicate with all of our public service staff from other EU countries, and tell them loudly and clearly that they are still welcome here in Wales?
On the first question, she knows the answer before she asked me, and that is that we don’t expect any money as a result of that pledge; it’s already unravelled. Those who professed it have said that it’s not actually what they meant. So, there we are—we’ll wait and see what they do when they get into government. But I entirely agree with what she says: our NHS would not function without medical and nursing staff from other countries, and it’s absolutely vital that they feel that they are still welcome in Wales. I know that she has said that strongly. I join her in that, because we know that so many citizens of other countries have delivered so much care and so much healing and treatments to so many of our people, and they are welcome in our country.
Thank you for that answer, First Minister. The prospect of leaving the European Union has already plunged the UK economy into deep uncertainty. But, for Wales, there’s an additional risk to capital investment to some of your manifesto commitments, and to industry as well. The south-east metro, for example, is intended to be partly financed by European structural funds, which may only be guaranteed up to 2020, if they are guaranteed at all. Can you tell us, therefore, what will happen now to the south Wales metro, and to the transport projects that you’ve promised for the north of Wales as well? Turning to industry as well, can you tell what is now likely to happen to Tata Steel and the future of Port Talbot, as well as other Welsh steelmaking plants?
On the first question, I wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday. I asked him to guarantee every penny that we would lose, to make sure that came to Wales. If that pledge is honoured, then we can proceed with the metro and other projects. If that promise is not honoured, then there are substantial financial gaps in many projects that would benefit the people of Wales. So, I expect that promise that was made so publicly to be honoured. On the issue of Tata, it has created uncertainty—much more uncertainty over the last few days. The difficulty is that the car industry is holding back until it sees what a trade deal looks like. They have said that publicly. Because Tata supplies in the UK so many of the car manufacturers, then clearly the steel industry is also in a situation where it doesn’t know what’s happening. Uncertainty is bad. My view is that article 50 should be triggered sooner rather than later. I think waiting months and months and months for it just adds to that uncertainty. Better that people know where they stand rather than not knowing what’s going to happen for many months and many years. But uncertainty is never going to be helpful in terms of investment: that’s why the process has to begin sooner rather than later, and to conclude as quickly as possible.
Turning now then to the wider picture within the UK and further afield, I want to see arrangements put in place to protect Wales’s constitutional status, our legislation, our funding, and our trading relationship with the rest of Europe while withdrawal takes place over the coming years. The UK Government is establishing a dedicated civil service unit to preside over Brexit, and the Prime Minister has said that all devolved Governments will be fully involved in the decision-making process over EU negotiations. We need to be clear: last week’s vote was not a vote to concentrate any additional powers at Westminster, and pledges were made during that campaign to guarantee our funding. How will you move quickly now to secure the best possible deal for Wales in all of this turmoil, and how will you work with others to salvage the situation for this country as best we can, especially given the chaos within the UK Government and your own party in Westminster?
Well, the first thing we have to project is stability in Wales and reassurance for business. I’ve asked the Secretary to draw up a number of points that we can put to business to make sure they understand that we very much see Wales as open for business. That’s hugely important. In terms of what the future holds, I welcome what the Prime Minister said in terms of Wales being involved, but I know he can’t speak for the next Prime Minister, who might take a different view. Bearing that in mind, we will be establishing a specialist team in our Brussels office whose job it will be to talk and negotiate directly with the European Commission. It doesn’t have to be instead of working with the UK Government, but we need to make sure that Wales has a voice, and a strong voice. We can’t get away from the fact that Wales voted to leave, so there’s no question of trying to go behind the verdict of the electors, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t have to work hard to make sure that Wales gets the best deal possible. We’ve got to make sure that we do that. I would not trust some of the people who I’ve seen, if they’re in Government in London in September, to get the best deal for Wales, and that is crucial, and that’s what we intend to do.
The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.
First Minister, I don’t expect you greeted the result of the referendum last Thursday with as much enthusiasm as I did, but Wales did vote decisively to leave the EU, and indeed a majority both in Bridgend and in the Rhondda voted to leave the EU, but the Welsh political establishment—Labour, Plaid and the Liberal Democrats—were uniformly in favour of remaining, and all the AMs in those parties in this place were in favour of remaining. What I’m now concerned to do is to look forward to the future, and I reiterate what you said a minute ago, that UKIP believes that every single pound that the EU currently spends of British taxpayers’ money in Wales at the minute should come to the Welsh Government to be spent here. So, we will give you every support that we possibly can in this endeavour. Would it not be better, therefore, in the spirit of co-operation with which you started your administration in this Assembly, to involve the leader of the Conservatives and me in making the case for Wales with the UK Government, because it will be strengthened with the added voices of those who actually were in favour of the result that the Welsh people voted for?
Well, my response—. I mean, he’s right; there we are, we saw the result. My response is the same as his party’s response in 2011 to our referendum in Wales, when that was lost by your party. But we have to accept it. There it is. We move on now with a new political landscape. I have already written to the Prime Minister. I expect to get a response. The people of Wales have voted for a Welsh Government to take forward that response. I think it is important that parties understand their positions as the negotiations proceed, because what we cannot do is be in a position where a trade deal is on the table without any input from Wales. That would be wholly undemocratic and dangerous, in my view, in terms of the way people perceive the UK. So, I am perfectly happy to work on the way forward, and the team that we establish in Brussels will help us to do that.
The First Minister, I’m sure, will agree with me that this now offers great opportunities for Wales. I appreciate that he concentrated upon the risks and the uncertainties before the referendum campaign, but now that we have the great opportunities that freedom of action gives us, we must capitalise on them and sell Wales in the wider world on that basis. It also offers us—and here I associate myself with what we’ve just heard from the leader of Plaid Cymru—further opportunities for the devolution of power. In particular, we will now have the opportunity to take control of our policy on agriculture, which means that we can then tailor to our own needs a policy to suit farmers in Wales, rather than have to compromise their interests on account of the interests of farmers in 27 other countries in the EU. So, again, I reiterate my request to the First Minister to involve the other parties—other than those that are in the various compacts that have been agreed—in these very important discussions, which will take place over the course of the next two years, to make sure that we get the best possible deal for Wales and the Welsh people out of this process.
Well, no doubt there will be involvement, of course, with all parties as those discussions continue, but it’s a sign of the strange realignment of politics that I’m listening to the leader of UKIP being more devolutionary than the leader of the Conservatives in Wales. That is the irony of the situation. He’s absolutely right: British agriculture doesn’t exist—it won’t exist. There is Welsh agriculture, and England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. There is no British agricultural policy. It’s the same with fisheries. For example, after the negotiations are concluded, Welsh boats will only have access to Welsh waters, and so there will need to be discussions between the different administrations on access, which I’m sure shouldn’t be problematic, in any event. It is important, and this is why I want to meet soon with the representatives of the fishing industry in Wales and representatives of the farming industry in Wales so that we can start work on what Welsh agricultural policy looks like. That means it’ll be a policy designed to look after those hill farmers who struggle on the hills, with difficult soil and difficult weather, rather than those who do very well thank you very much in areas of Wales that are very easy to farm. So, it’s hugely important that we design an agricultural policy that is specific to the needs of Wales, and is tailored to the needs of Welsh farmers. That is something I’ll be working on with the farming unions in Wales.
Will the First Minister join me today also in condemning our Chancellor, George Osborne, who seems not to have realised that the referendum is over and is still carrying on with project fear, and who has announced today there’ll be spending cuts and tax increases in the autumn because we’ve got to live within our means, and that this comes ill from the mouth of Britain’s worst Chancellor in living memory, who’s doubled the national debt in five years and is still running a budget deficit of £60 billion or £70 billion a year? There is no reason whatever arising out of the referendum to force the increases in taxes or spending cuts purely on account of the short-term volatility in the financial markets, which will shortly be resolved.
The leader of UKIP is an optimist. He says there are advantages here: it is not immediately obvious, I have to say, what the advantages are. We are in a period of uncertainty, and uncertainty is bad. Fifty per cent of what we export from Wales goes into the European Union, and so the nature of the deal that we have with that market will be absolutely crucial to our future well-being. And until we know what that deal looks like, it’s very difficult to understand what challenges, possibly opportunities, will be there for Welsh businesses. But I know, because businesses are saying to me, that they are holding back on investment now until they get that certainty. One way or another—and it’s been decided one way or another—there must be certainty, and I do not think that waiting many months to begin the formal negotiation process—for years before there’s a final decision—is in the interests of business. The decision’s been taken; it must be taken forward now as quickly as is reasonably practicable, and there has to be a deal on the table that should, to my mind, be ratified with all four national Parliaments at least. That will be a complex and difficult process, but, bluntly, the need for certainty for our businesses is absolutely paramount; they will not invest until they have an idea of what the end game looks like, and we’re a long way from that.