The next item, therefore, item 3, is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, and I call on David Melding to move the motion.

Motion NDM6026 David Melding, Julie Morgan, Lee Waters, Llyr Gruffydd, Neil Hamilton

Supported by Lynne Neagle, Nick Ramsay, Suzy Davies, Angela Burns, Mark Isherwood, Janet Finch-Saunders

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Believes that the Welsh Government should examine ways to strengthen inter-departmental working to improve outcomes for looked after children.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Presiding Officer. Can I thank you and the Business Committee for selecting this topic for discussion as an individual Member’s debate? I think, from the range of interest it’s sparked and the number of Assembly Members that signed the motion for debate, the interest of this subject is something that marks us deeply in the Assembly.

I’d like to start, really, with ‘Lost in Care’, this report that changed the way, I think, we viewed the care system and had an impact all across the UK. It was published nearly 17 years ago, and I’ve actually brought my copy. It’s quite a tome, as you can see. For me, it’s really marked the history of the Assembly because it was one of the very first subjects that commanded our attention from the word ‘go’ and has remained with us, really. The implications, the recommendations that are in this report and the issues to be addressed are still ongoing. There have been advances, but many of the challenges still remain. For me, it’s something of a personal disappointment that perhaps we’ve not made more progress. I will talk about some of the issues in particular where I think we need to do much more, but of course the welfare of looked-after children is something that we should always consider. It’s hardly a box we can tick and then just move on.

Ronald Waterhouse’s report actually looked specifically at care in Gwynedd and Clwyd in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s but many of the issues that were identified, as I said, were found across the UK once the services were properly examined. At least we can say that, from the publication of this report, in the public eye, the welfare of looked-after children has been emphasised and has attracted great public attention. I suppose that attention has primarily focused on safeguarding rather than outputs and improving outcomes for looked-after children directly. But, of course, when the report was published, it was the horrific examples and instances of abuse that commanded the media and public attention. I can say that, in the first Assembly, in the Health and Social Services Committee, it absolutely dominated the work that we did, and it had a real impact, emotionally as well as politically, on the Members. I suppose if we don’t get things right for looked-after children there’s always the danger in future that we’ll actually regress, and we’ll find that outcomes will once again be very, very poor indeed, even on issues like safeguarding.

I want to turn, then, to outcomes. I should say, in terms of safeguarding, there is no room for complacency, but things in general, just because of the inspection regimes and the interest that politicians take in these issues, both in councils and here in the Assembly, and at a Government level—safeguarding issues are something that perhaps we don’t focus on as much as we did then. It is appropriate that we actually move and look at outcomes, and I suppose that when we look at outcomes, the effective joint working of the various agencies is key, because we’re looking at health, we’re looking at education, we’re looking at housing, we’re looking at skills—all these things inter-relate, either directly, for looked-after children, or when they leave care, for care leavers. But it’s also a matter of great importance to work jointly within Government, and here the better co-ordination of different departments, I think, is something that would allow for the more effective co-ordinated delivery amongst various public agencies as well. We should mirror that type of co-ordination in Government itself, because this isn’t just an area of concern for one particular department.

In this respect, I turn to the Prison Reform Trust’s report, which, whilst looking at the experience of looked-after children in the criminal justice process, did call for the formation of a Cabinet sub-committee to provide national leadership, and, indeed, the Westminster Government did respond and has established a sub-committee. When the First Minister announced the formation of the current Government, in congratulating him and wishing him well for the work of the current Government in the fifth Assembly, I did ask whether you would look at this, and whether a Cabinet committee could be established in the Welsh Government, and I believe that is something that is now being looked at. The Prison Reform Trust did call for more effective joint working, proper regulation and policy development across the Welsh Government, so that’s the direct reason we have the motion in front of us today.

At the heart of our approach to the care of looked-after children is the concept of corporate parenting. Now, this rests principally with local authorities, but I think it’s very important indeed that we realise that we’re part of that responsibility to deliver effective corporate parenting as well, and that’s why we are discussing this very particular proposal in terms of how the Government should improve its co-ordination.

The number of looked-after children has increased substantially since the publication of the ‘Lost in Care’ report, so again this redoubles the need for us to be vigilant in this area and to be ambitious for better outcomes. In 1999 there were 3,657 children in care; now that number has risen by nearly 2,000 to 5,617. Abuse or neglect remain the main reasons for children entering care, and obviously many of them have had very, very challenging and difficult experiences. So, the work of professionals is to be greatly valued in this area, because to achieve outcomes requires application, ambition and great persistence, but we need to be part of that ambition here in the Assembly.

Most looked-after children are now in foster placements. In the last generation or so, this has been quite a big change: from residential homes to foster carers. But these placements are not always stable. In 2015, just last year, 9 per cent of looked-after children had three or more foster care placements in one year, and 20 per cent of them experienced two or more changes. So, in the last year for which we have figures, nearly a third of looked-after children experienced a change in their care package.

I want to just say a few words about educational attainment. I think this is an important area, because it is probably the best proxy we have for the general standard of care that we give to looked-after children. It’s not the only thing: I was reminded earlier today in a meeting that the emotional well-being of looked-after children is crucial and, indeed, their whole educational experience; it’s not just about educational attainment. You would say that too of the general population, but it is a measure we can come back to and it does give us hard data. It has, I think it’s fair to say, been a focus in the Assembly, really, for the last 15, 16, 17 years. Things have improved, but not by as much as we would like. Only 18 per cent of looked-after children achieve five GCSEs at A to C, including English and maths—18 per cent. For the general population, it’s 58 per cent. So, that’s 40 per cent more. Only 7 per cent of care leavers aged 19 were in higher education. So, that’s 24 students at the moment. And, obviously, compared to the general population, it’s much, much lower.

I do want to commend some of the work that’s gone on, and the Welsh Government has not been backward in trying to address these problems, and there have been many, many policy developments. For instance, under the provisions of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, the Welsh Government is producing a national approach to looked-after children to improve collaborative working. That’s important. In January, a strategy was published by the Welsh Government to raise educational attainment, and it included a call for greater ambition, which I really, really welcome. So, there is work going on and we need to follow that through and ensure that it reaches the standards we need.

I think, generally, to conclude, we should aim in Wales for outstanding best practice. By that, I don’t mean copying current best practice, I mean taking it further. We could be a world leader. We have done it before. For example, the learning disabilities strategy, started in the mid-1980s, transformed that public policy area and led to changes worldwide. You had people wanting to work in Wales from across the world because we were developing that area of policy so effectively. I would also urge Members to read the recommendations that a group of charities in the field of looked-after children made when we conducted the election for this fifth Assembly. There, some very concrete things were emphasised, like the focus on outcomes, with emphasis on the responsibility of corporate parents—including us, not just local authorities, the recognition of emotional well-being as a priority, improving the permanence and stability of care and educational placements, listening to the voices of looked-after children, a key area, and appropriate and stable accommodation for care leavers. And can I just say, I think the participation of looked-after children is really, really important in all of what we do, including the training and the inspection of facilities? In all these things, we could involve looked-after children much more effectively. Finally, can I just say we need to really value the care system, because when it works it can deliver outstanding care and opportunities to looked-after children?

As a parent, I know how important my advocacy is on their behalf, and it pains me—and many of you, I’m sure—that children who’ve already had a tough start in life often don’t have someone with the love and passion of a parent to fight their corner. The damage done to the life chances of these children is a stain on us all, and the responsibility to do better falls on us all—all services, businesses, all sectors.

I’d like to briefly focus on one area, taking on what David Melding has said. And I’d just like to briefly pay tribute to the leadership David Melding has shown in this area over a number of years, in setting up and leading the all-party group. He has a genuine and sincere passion for it, and I’m very pleased to be working alongside him in that group, as a new Member.

He mentioned the shocking statistic that, in key stage 4—the year leading up to GCSEs—there’s a 40 per cent difference in academic performance between children who have been in care and those who have not. Just 18 per cent of children who have been looked after achieve 5 GCSEs grades A to C. So, it’s little wonder that the Buttle Trust found in 2011 that only 7 per cent of care leavers were in higher education. As I say, a stain on us all. So, it’s self-evident that we need to be far more demanding of ourselves, at every stage of the school journey, to support looked-after children to achieve their potential.

Now, there is specific guidance in place, in the form of learner support services and learning pathways, which state that young people aged 14 to 19 will have access to personal support, through their schools’ or institutions’ pastoral support services. And there are many examples of where schools and further education colleges do provide strong pastoral support for looked-after children. For example, further education colleges report that extra capacity to help support students makes a big difference. Designated learning coaches to provide advice, teaching support, signposting and advocacy are available, but they are costly, and we know that FE has been under strain not just in terms of resources, but growing pressure from supporting the needs of vulnerable learners. But it shows what can be done when we decide to make this a priority.

The current guidance has begun to create opportunities for all learners to have access to a wider curriculum. In making their choice to progress to FE or stay in school, young people will rely on their parents and relationships in school to inform their choice. And there’s clearly a need for specific support for looked-after children, and I hope the Cabinet Secretary will consider looking at the provisions in place to enable children in care to receive the best support in choosing to study at FE, in work-based learning, or in sixth form, and on to HE, if they desire it. This is already required by statutory guidance, but we need to be satisfied that the current efforts are sufficient. Thank you.

Whether we refer to looked-after children, or children looked after, we’re talking about the individual lives of those who depend on us to give them life chances. As we heard, at 5,617, the number of looked-after children in Wales in 2015 was up 200 on 2011, and 1,000 on 2008. And, as I stated when we debated this in 2011, looked-after children have much poorer psychological and social outcomes when compared to their peers. A 2004 study found that the prevalence of mental disorders for children and young people aged five to 17 and looked after by local authorities in Wales was 49 per cent. Another study found that psychiatric disorders are particularly high among those living in residential care and with many changes of placement.

Although 94 per cent of looked-after children do not get involved in the criminal justice system, research in 2005 showed that up to 41 per cent of children who end up in custody across the UK will have some history of being in care. The Centre for Social Justice report, ‘Couldn’t Care Less’, stated that the treatment of many children in care and those leaving the care system deserves to be a source of national shame. These children, they said, too often go on to experience lives characterised by unemployment, homelessness, mental illness and addiction. We’re picking up these enormous costs through the criminal justice system and the health service and these are set to rise.

The 2009 Westminster Children, Schools and Families Committee report found that the state is failing in its duty to act as a parent to children in care, by not adequately protecting them from sexual exploitation, homelessness, and falling into crime, with children in care, aged 10 and over, more than twice as likely to be cautioned or convicted of an offence. It also revealed evidence of organised, targeted exploitation of girls in residential homes and hostels and warned that the vulnerability of young people leaving care was a matter of great concern.

The Children’s Commissioner for Wales 2010-11 annual report stated that the provision of advocacy for looked-after children, care leavers and children in need is inconsistent across Wales. Lessons from Sir Ronald Waterhouse’s report ‘Lost in Care’, the Carlisle review, ‘Too Serious a Thing’, and our own ‘Telling Concerns’, they said, are that advocacy is an essential element of safeguarding, enabling children and young people to speak up when they perceive that something is wrong. He added that if this is to happen for all children and young people in care, we would expect that all of them would be actively encouraged to have an advocate with whom they can build up a trusting relationship.

What the paper also showed was that other countries seemed to be much more responsive to the needs of the children they’ve taken into care, and often with better results. The previous children’s commissioner also spoke about his frustration at the ‘initial slow response’ to recommendations he’d made about independent advocacy in his 2012 ‘Missing Voices’ report and the follow-up 2013 report, ‘Missing Voices: Missing Progress’. We therefore need to know whether local authorities and Welsh Government will implement together a national model for statutory advocacy services to meet the requirements of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. We also need to address the attainment gap between looked-after children and that of all pupils, rising from 23 per cent at foundation phase to 40 per cent at key stage 4, with only 18 per cent of looked-after children achieving five A* to C GCSEs, including English or Welsh and maths.

The 2009 children’s commissioner’s ‘Full of Care’ report referred to the advantages that a young carers identity card could bring, and, four years ago, I attended the official launch by the children’s commissioner of the Barnardo’s Cymru and Flintshire County Council Access to Action card for young carers, looked-after children and care leavers. This was the first of its kind in Wales, designed to help young people to receive recognition and prompt access to services they need. Although this should have been a template for an all-Wales card—something I raised with the Welsh Government at the time—I now understand it’s not received the support it needs and I urge the Welsh Government to address this and expand it across Wales.

And as the Centre for Social Justice’s ‘Survival of the Fittest’ report states, and I conclude, we must address

‘the extreme loneliness and isolation felt by care leavers, by finding ways to foster enduring and supportive relationships, with birth families, siblings, former carers and children’s services, that last long after 21.’

As we’ve heard, of course, already, children in care are especially vulnerable, and outcomes are too often much poorer than we would wish, with those in care likely to have fewer qualifications, being at an increased risk of homelessness, mental health problems and the risk of ending up in the criminal justice system. Now, the number of looked-after children in care has steadily risen over the past 15 years, from around 3,500 back in 2000 to over 5,600 last year. Now, this clearly indicates that pressure on the services will continue to rise and that changes are necessary to ensure better outcomes for these children and young people. And, looking at the graph, you could see that there is a clear jump after 2008, after the economic crash—not immediately maybe, but about a year or 18 months later. Some might argue that that might have coincided when the cuts and austerity measures started to bite. There may be evidence out there to prove or disprove that, but I have to say that the jump was quite striking when you looked at the graph. And if there is a correlation between the recession and the number of children in care, then we have to ready ourselves for a potential further increase in demands for services in this post-referendum Wales. So, there is, I think, a huge imperative on the Welsh Government to act now to ensure that we do all we can to meet this challenge. And we all recognise, I’m sure, that a lot has happened in terms of legislation and strategies, but I think the time now is for a more relentless focus on the outcomes that we are looking for.

Education, of course, being one of those that has already been highlighted and how well looked-after children do in school, and whether they go on to further training or employment as well, of course, is often considered to be an important measure of how well this group of children have been supported. There are excellent examples out there of successes, of course there are, but the general statistics tell us quite a grim story. Indeed, there is a wide gap between the attainment of looked-after children and that of pupils generally.

The Member for Llanelli referred to this earlier. At foundation stage, the gap is 23 percentage points; at key stage 2, the gap is 24 percentage points; at key stage 3, it increases to 36 percentage points; and, as we heard earlier, the gap is at its widest at key stage 4, with a 40 per cent difference—up from 30 percentage points in 2004, by the way. The latest statistics show that 45 per cent of care leavers aged 19 were not in education, employment or training last year. Whilst that is the lowest percentage in the past nine years, it’s clearly still unacceptably high.

Looked-after children need stability, of course, as we’ve heard, rather than being continually moved between placements. If children are moving too frequently, then clearly changing schools also has a disruptive effect on their education as well as being more likely to suffer in terms of mental health too. As David said, in Wales, around 9 per cent of looked-after children had three or more placements in the year, and, although this is a gradual decline from 13 per cent in 2004, clearly it’s still too high.

There is too, I have to say, inconsistency within the education system on how adopted or fostered children are dealt with and the possibility that the perception of them being different may result in bullying. Some schools appreciate the issues and offer excellent support, but there are others out there that do not.

Estyn reported today that pupils educated outside the classroom often miss out on the benefits of the wider curriculum and specialist help. I haven’t had time to look at whether the report particularly considers looked-after children in any way, but I do know that the Government set up the task and finish group last year to consider those in education other than at school—something, of course, Keith Towler, the previous children’s commissioner, referred to as a cinderella service back in May 2014. Now, that task and finish group reports in September, and I would ask the Secretary maybe to discuss with the education Secretary whether that task and finish group could actually specifically consider looked-after children as a particular group within this particular context. Another suggestion made earlier today as well was whether Estyn could actually undertake a thematic review maybe of work with looked-after children in schools across Wales to better inform deliberations and strategies in this respect.

Plaid Cymru has been broadly supportive of the approach taken in the last Assembly and, clearly, I would support efforts to strengthen the current arrangements as long, of course, as it has that relentless focus now on improving the outcomes.

I am very pleased to contribute to this debate to seek to speak up for the needs of our looked-after children here in Wales and to pay tribute to the many fantastic individuals working with them, loving them and supporting them. Without their incredible dedication to our most vulnerable children, many would be left without the individual comfort and love that only a parent or carer can provide. This debate follows a recent report from the Prison Reform Trust as regards looked-after children and the link that my colleague, Mark Isherwood, made, calling for good joint working, proper regulation and policy development across Wales.

Schools with pupils who are looked-after children are eligible for the relevant pupil deprivation grant funding, which, alongside Communities First, is concentrated in our most deprived areas, but, again, is there to help looked-after children. The Welsh Conservatives have previously highlighted our concern though that this grant lacks effective outcome measures, and I would urge the Cabinet Secretary today to look into that and ask what consideration he will give to the impact of Welsh Government funding on the education outcomes of looked-after children, particularly in Communities First areas. What outcome measures will the Welsh Government place on the pupil deprivation grant to ensure that it is being utilised to effectively improve outcomes for all children, including our looked-after ones?

Since the establishment of the National Assembly for Wales and the shocking findings of the Waterhouse inquiry, we have seen numerous strategies put forward with the aim of improving welfare and, most importantly, protection for our children. However, we do still see a marked difference in outcomes across the board, with some of the statistics requiring improvement. I have casework experience where looked-after children are in foster care and then they move into adoption and there seems to be a void then of support, and support is actually withdrawn. I know that families have come to me quite desperate, really, wanting a continuum of that support, because otherwise if they don’t get that support, quite often, sometimes those children can end up back in foster care or back within the local authority. It’s important that if we have families willing to love and nurture these children that they’re given every opportunity and every support. Furthermore, 45 per cent of care leavers aged 19 in Wales were not in education, employment or training and that is compared to 34 per cent in England and 31 per cent in Northern Ireland. So, there is work to be done there to bring those figures up.

Blind Children UK Cymru this week were concerned at the lack of children’s habilitation specialists in Wales and, again, this is another possibility that our most vulnerable children are missing out on this kind of support. Blind Children UK Cymru found also that only two local authorities reported involving parents and children in the decision-making process when considering their eligibility for services. It does raise concerns for the involvement and engagement of looked-after children and their carers—particularly for those who have more than one placement. I know in one of my examples I had three siblings of one family and for them to try and access services in that environment was very frustrating for their adoptive parents. On this note, I find it a particular concern to note that 9 per cent of our looked-after children had three or more placements in 2014-15 with a further 20 per cent having two placements. So, we’ve got to do everything we can to ensure that we match the right children with the right sort of families and that we do everything in our power to support them. Stability and consistency are valuable and reassuring mainstays are for a productive and positive home life, but we do need proactive joint working between social services, foster carers and children, with real input from the children throughout the process.

Llywydd, the future of looked-after children is, by the very definition, not just in the hands of those who come forward to help and support, but in our hands also. And, for every concern I raise today there are indeed some positive and wonderful outcomes for our looked-after children across Wales. However, we must be vigilant to ensure that there is consistency—a seamless transition and a seamless provision of care and support. We need a collaborative approach, to ensure that local authorities, social workers, schools, the third sector and, most importantly, children and their fosterers are involved in developing appropriate care plans and that we take any steps to improve the education and engagement here to secure a positive outcome for these amazing children across Wales.

Can I just declare an interest as a trustee of Friends and Families of Prisoners in Swansea? Some young people, of course, have very good news stories as David Melding said in his opening remarks. The number of young people leaving care to go into higher education, for example, has gone up considerably since 2004, when, of 11,000 young people leaving care in England and Wales, only 60 went to university. But it’s still only seven per cent of care leavers that go into higher education now. The fact that in January this year we still needed a strategy for raising the attainment of children who are looked after shows that, even today, corporate parenting is not wholly successful in helping children seize better life chances. As we heard from Mark Isherwood—[Interruption.] Yes, by all means.

Thank you, Suzy, for taking an intervention. Would you agree with me that children are not able to move on? I’ve heard an awful lot of stats today, but these are individuals with individual needs. Would you agree with me that, unless their emotional well-being is addressed first, then you cannot expect any levels of attainment while they’re still carrying that emotional baggage with them?

I agree completely, because it’s not about the lack of opportunities, it’s the inability to be able to seize those opportunities that I think is at the heart of what we’re talking about today. We heard from Mark Isherwood, of course, that we are awash with research and reports and there’s another report being launched by the children’s commissioner today. If the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 is to mean anything, it has to succeed at breaking down silos and silo thinking about how, in this case, we take responsibility together for corporate parenting. I think it’s about far more than just Government departments; otherwise, all this research and all these reports won’t lead to fundamentally life-changing results for young people in care, and the access to the opportunity that Joyce was just talking about.

In the last Assembly, the Children, Young People and Education Committee conducted an in-depth inquiry with a later follow-up inquiry into adoption. In the course of both those inquiries, we heard from adoptive parents who adopted in ignorance of issues affecting their child at the time of adoption, or who did not receive support to deal with behaviours that manifested themselves as the children grew older. And one of the points I would really like to press home today is the fact that some formerly looked-after children don’t cease to have high needs just because they’ve been adopted. The scars of abuse and neglect, parental incapacity or absence or extreme family dysfunction don’t heal just because a child has found a new family to love and nurture them. So, in examining how cross-departmental corporate parenting can be better in today’s debate, we must remember the challenges facing adoptive families too, because the act of transferring parental responsibility must not mean washing our hands of those children. For every step we take to improve the value we place on foster parents and the essential place that they have in raising looked-after children, so we should do the same for adoptive parents. Llyr was absolutely right to talk about looked-after children and adopted children in the same breath.

However good our foster parents are, as David Melding said, many looked-after children will go through a series of placements, reinforcing the lack of stability and incomplete attachment that led to the state stepping in to protect many of them in the first place. There’s one particular type of separation that I want to speak on today, because it lends itself to targeted support but is complicated by the devolution settlement, and that is the children affected by an imprisonment of a parent.

Not all children with a parent in prison go into care; there are about two and a half times as many children with a parent in jail as there are children in care, and not all children in care have parents in prison, of course. In fact, in families where the father goes to jail, the overwhelming majority of children stay with the family at home with the mother. However, when it’s the mother who goes to jail, only 5 per cent of children stay at home with the father. The majority are looked after by kinship carers—grandparents mainly, but other family members as well—and this informal care, as with adoption, is not consistently recognised as an arrangement that requires active support by Government. Just because a child is not being formally corporately parented doesn’t mean that they are immune from the same development and emotional behaviour issues that arise from separation and lack of continuity and security as looked-after children do.

Now is an appropriate time to applaud organisations like Friends and Families of Prisoners and Barnardo’s, as well as the excellent work done in Parc prison to maintain strong family bonds between, in these cases, fathers and their children. But it’s an opportune time to remember too that while children generally stay at home with mum when dad is in jail, when mum is in jail 12 per cent of those children go into care. Jailing mothers not only creates a greater call on unsupported kinship care, but it brings more children into the care system. We know that a greater number of care leavers become offenders than their peers. We know that a greater number of children of prisoners become offenders than their peers. These children are doubly at risk of going into prison themselves, and I hope that any moves towards improving corporate parenting takes this particular cohort of children into particular consideration. Thank you.

I call the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Can I say I’m very pleased to take part in this really important debate that’s been brought by cross-party Members? Can I start my contribution by quoting from the children’s commissioner’s report on the review of children’s rights in residential care, which was launched today, a quote about not lacking anything? Phoebe, aged 13, has been in care since she was six months old, had more than 25 placements and she was quoted as saying:

‘I wanna stay until hopefully the sun comes out and gives me a nice life.’

Well, there but for the grace of God go I, for many. Let’s make sure we can work together to achieve this.

I’d like to say thank you to Assembly Members across the Chamber today for tabling this debate. It’s particularly clear that there is consensus amongst Members from all parties that looked-after children should be supported so that they have the same start in life and opportunities as those for all other children. I was really concerned when David had the book on his desk, because I wasn’t sure whether they were going to be questions or what. But I’m very grateful for the Member’s contribution and continued support in this.

I support the motion. I will be working to facilitate effective collaboration across national and local Government and with all our partners in the community and third sector to improve outcomes for looked-after children. But they’re just words on my paper, and I think the real key here is about how we are able to implement those processes.

I listened carefully to the contributions of Mark Isherwood and many who mentioned the Prison Reform Trust with regard to the children’s sub-committee that David also mentioned. I think that, when the report came out, we were in a slightly different place because the legislation then was very different to what we have now. In the last Government, we introduced the well-being of future generations Act, which now places a duty on 44 public bodies, including Government, on how we work very differently together. I can tell you that, as a Minister of the last administration and a Minister of this administration that, in only very early days, it is a very different way we operate in terms of joined-up working. I know that the First Minister and I are very keen to try and understand whether the sub-committee would add value or whether the legislation that we have in place now will commit and demonstrate that we can work differently across organisations. I would ask Members just to give us some space in order that we can achieve that. We are in the same place with you. The First Minister has made it very clear that he would like to see a more collaborative approach to policy development, and the policy portfolios demonstrate this and strengthen our ability to work collaboratively—

Will the Minister give way?

Of course, David, yes.

He’s asking for a bit of time to see how current processes are working and, you know, he probably wants to avoid too bureaucratic an approach if what we want to achieve is now going to be increasingly likely given new processes. After a year or so, if you want to review things, that’s fine, but will you come back and report on how interdepartmental co-operation in the Welsh Government is now producing better outcomes?

Indeed. The Member raises a very valid point, and I have no doubt—. I would be very happy to come back in 12 months, or before if I think there are some issues. I am absolutely committed to making sure that we can do something about this. I’m grateful for the Member’s suggestion.

As the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, my priority is to improve the well-being and economic prosperity of individuals and communities, and I am clear that the roots of well-being and economic prosperity lie in childhood. We must invest in our children so that they can have the best possible outcomes to contribute effectively to society for the future. We know that the outcomes of looked-after children do not compare favourably with other children. Many have been quoted today. They are less likely to achieve good educational qualifications, have greater health and housing needs, and these young people are more likely to become involved in substance misuse and to come into contact with the criminal justice system, and this is not acceptable.

I did listen very carefully to some of the arguments about the five GCSEs and attainment level at certain ages, and what I would like Members to consider in that proposal is that we need a much more holistic approach to what we must tackle because educational attainment is not everything; it’s about the roundness of the individual as well. I’ve seen a study recently, where—. It was a study about NEETs, where five GCSEs weren’t attained by individuals trying to going into employment. But the study of the local area also looked at people who were employed and, actually, the people who were employed outweighed the number of non-NEETs with people who had no qualifications in work. The problem I have with that is about—well, what is it that looked-after children or people with fewer than five GCSEs—. What is the roundness of them growing up? I’ve been doing a little bit of work with Public Health Wales and I’ve sent David a link during this debate about what Members should perhaps have a think about—the adverse childhood experiences that Public Health Wales have been working on. I would suggest that many of the children found in the care system have had more than five adverse childhood experiences. One of the Members—Suzy—mentioned incarceration. I know that young people who have five hits on adverse childhood experiences are 20 per cent more likely to find themselves incarcerated later in life. We must do something about the prevention end, about making sure we look after children early on as well as in the system currently. It’s a twin-track approach that my department and my team will be working to achieve.

Will you take an intervention?

Indeed, I will.

Thank you. Cabinet Secretary, I’d be very grateful then—. Listening to what you have to say brought joy to my heart because this is an area I’ve been very concerned about with the Donaldson review. Therefore, given what you say about having five GCSEs at C grade or above as being the measure by which we measure the people here in Wales—and we have so many young people, just under a quarter of young people, with learning difficulties who will struggle to get that attainment, will you talk with the education Secretary, and actually review during the Donaldson Review two things—one about how you can look at that very much tick-box exercise we have, to measure the academic achievement of individuals, and secondly, how we might be able to bring what you’ve just mentioned, that learning skill, to develop the rounded person? Because you’re absolutely right—a good education is not to do with exams, and not to do with syllabus, but much more about developing a good citizen.

I’m very glad the Member intervened. You know, we’re a victim of our own success. We chase targets far too often without looking at people. And the rights and wrongs of that, with opposition parties and politicians, is that there’s a great chance to chastise people to say, ‘You haven’t made the 5 GCSEs’, when, actually, we’re forgetting about the individual, and particularly looked-after children. So, my priority and my team’s department priorities will be making sure that we can tackle ACEs early on—adverse childhood experiences—which we think, longer term, will give us a better outcome, and a rounded person, for people who, hopefully, won’t even enter the care system in that process.

Over the last two years, we have seen a reduction in the number of looked-after children in Wales, but I ask Members again to look with caution at the numbers in care, because we bandy those numbers about, but, actually, sometimes, it is the right thing for children to be protected in their environment. And I will be looking to reverse the trend and make sure that we continue on a reduction as it’s safe to do so, and supporting communities in this Assembly term.

I will be reconvening the improving outcomes for children strategic steering group, established by the former Minister for Health and Social Services, to drive forward reform and develop a national approach to looked-after children in Wales. Since its establishment, in September 2015, the group has brought together key stakeholders who will, and have looked at looked-after children’s foster carers and adopters. There’s much more work to be done here, and across Government departments. I reflect again what I said earlier about the WFG Act, where all departments across the Government are looking at education, housing, tackling poverty and public health—how we all can make a contribution to the benefit of young people.

Going forward, the group will identify what early intervention and preventative action could be taken to help reduce the numbers of children taken into care, and consequently bringing down the incidences of adverse childhood experiences. The group’s work programme will be based around three key themes. One, preventing children entering care and early intervention; two, improving outcomes for children already in care; and supporting care leavers to have successful futures and independent living. Successful outcomes in this area require collaboration and leadership across departments within national and local governments, and I heard the Members raise issues around the synergies between social services and education, and that’s absolutely the right thing to do. For children already in care, we are committed to improving the provision of high-quality placements that meet their needs, and give them the stability and support they need in order to thrive. This includes implementing a new national fostering framework, reviewing our special guardianship orders and promoting greater support for kinship carers.

We particularly want to ensure that all children and young people reach their full potential in education. The Welsh Government published a joint education and social services strategy in January, to raise the educational attainments of looked-after children, which sets out clear actions for improvement. I will be reviewing those numbers. [Intervention.] Indeed.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. You touched on this, but how much work have you done on looking at that transition period between the age of 18 and that period when children in care are going on into adulthood? Because I’ve spoken to a number of young people who feel that the transition is too abrupt, and they go from a very cared, look-after environment into an environment where they really don’t feel equipped to deal with the world.

Of course, and I think the Member’s right to raise that issue too. Look, we are talking about some very special people here. The programme we run is When I’m Ready, and making sure that is ready for the individual, not when it’s good for service providers. It’s about real people here—that’s what we’ve got to get underneath. Regardless of the age profile, I think we just need to understand better how we deliver good-quality services.

So, finally Presiding Officer—I’m very aware of the time and she’s been very kind to me this afternoon—can I say that what we need to do is work together? The cross-party group will continue to work with us—I take advice, and listen very carefully to you. I will report back to the Senedd about our progress in this very important area to me, and I know to Members, and it has cross-party support. So I urge Members today to support the motion; the Government will.

And to reply to the debate, Julie Morgan.

Diolch, Lywydd. Thank you very much for all the contributions to the debate. I’m very pleased to wind up this debate about the ways we can strengthen inter-departmental working to improve outcomes for looked-after children. Making sure our children have happy, fulfilled lives must be one of the most important functions of this Assembly. Children don’t have a voice, so that’s why we have to speak up for them, and looked-after children particularly don’t have a voice.

In his opening speech, David Melding, once again, showed his commitment to looked-after children and the great job that he’s always done in this Assembly to look after their interests. He talked about ‘Lost in Care’, 17 years ago now, and the way that practice has changed since then, but the challenge still remains. He called for something similar to the Cabinet sub-committee that is recommended by the Prison Reform Trust, as well as covering, in a wide-ranging speech, educational attainment, the permanence of education and the participation of children in the decisions about their lives.

Lee Waters talked about the further education system. He talked about the need for specific support for looked-after children in FE, the sixth form and higher education. He gave examples of good practice, such as having designated learning coaches, and wanted to know what we could do here to pursue those ends. Mark Isherwood mentioned the fact that advocacy is inconsistent across Wales and called on the Government to tell us what the timetable is for the implementation of a national approach to statutory advocacy.

Llyr Gruffydd called for a relentless focus on outcomes and asked whether the task and finish group that is looking at the outcomes for children not in education, employment or training could maybe look at the outcomes as well for care leavers within that particular group.

Janet Finch-Saunders paid tribute to those looking after children and wanted to look into the impact of Welsh Government funding, especially the pupil deprivation grant, on the outcomes for children who are in care. She also stressed the need for after-adoption support, and how important that is. This was something that was also reflected in Suzy Davies’s contribution: that children are often placed with parents, and after the placement, there is nowhere to turn. So, that was an important point made there. Also, she raised a very important point about what the effect is on children when parents are imprisoned, particularly when the mother is imprisoned, and how often that does lead to an admission into care and how we have to deal very carefully with those very, very difficult areas—contact with fathers in particular. I think that was a very important point.

Then, the Cabinet Secretary told us about his commitment to doing something about this very important area of work. He started off by saying the quote in Sally Holland’s recent publication:

‘I wanna stay until…the sun comes out’.

I think that really says what we feel about this particular subject—that we don’t want our children in care to be feeling that everything is insecure—and I think that quote covers it all. He said that we must invest in our children and talked about the importance of the well-being of future generations Act. He gave a commitment that, during this Assembly, we would be working, and the Government would be working relentlessly as a Government, to raise the quality of life for children who are in care and to ensure that they get the sort of support and commitment that children who live in their own families do. So, I’d like to thank everybody for taking part in this debate today and I think it’s a first step in all the work that we will be doing in this Assembly over the next five years.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? If not, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.