Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 1:20 pm on 6 July 2016.
He knows my view. It’s unavoidable that there will come a time when there is a distinct jurisdiction—possibly a separate jurisdiction. That is the view of the Welsh Government.
Policing, similarly, is something that makes no sense, in terms of it not being devolved. Otherwise, we end up in a situation where, for example, public order legislation will be largely devolved and the police will be policing laws in Wales despite the fact that will they will not be responsible in Wales for policing those laws. There are anomalies there that will need to be dealt with in years to come.
I know the Secretary of State will not be in agreement with me in terms of the jurisdiction and in terms of policing, but, unfortunately, it does mean that this Bill—an improvement though it is on the previous Bill—cannot possibly be a lasting settlement as far as Wales is concerned, for those reasons and also because of the fact that we know, in the aftermath of the referendum, that the constitutional situation in the UK is quite febrile at the moment and we don’t know what’ll happen to the UK itself in the next three years, and it will need careful handling if the UK is to survive.
There are some areas, however, in which I believe there will need to be further discussion. Why, for example, would the community infrastructure levy not be devolved? It’s a planning tax, in effect. Taxation is being devolved to this Assembly. It strikes me as anomalous that the community infrastructure levy, therefore, would not be devolved.
He also made mention of the planning Bill, where—yes—we have an interest in the National Infrastructure Commission, not out of choice, but because there are those of us who believe that what that commission does should actually be devolved to Wales in any event. So, we have no choice but to be part of what is inaccurately called a ‘National Infrastructure Commission’, because it applies to England and to Wales in some areas.
With the devolution of most public order legislation, it also seems strange that licensing isn’t devolved. Given that we know that alcohol is the cause of much public disorder, on the one hand we will be able to create offences or amend the law with regard to public order, but not deal with one of the main causes of public disorder. Again, the argument that was used with me in years gone by was that licensing was an integral part of public order legislation under criminal law, which is now going to be devolved in the main. So, why, then, keep licensing as an exception?
We have agreement in principle on the devolution of teachers’ pay and conditions—it’s worth re-emphasising that. Further discussions, of course, will need to take place as to what kind of financial transfer will be needed in order for that to be given effect in Wales.
I welcome what he said about the ports. I fail to see why Milford Haven should, in effect, become a treaty port, in the same way that two ports in Ireland did when the Irish Free State was set up. I would welcome further explanation as to why Milford should be treated differently to every other port in the whole of Wales.
Could I welcome, at least, the setting up of the justice in Wales working group? I have to say to him that no invitation has yet been received by me or Ministers to participate in that group, but I welcome what he has said today—that there will be Welsh Government participation. I look forward to ministerial participation being part of that.
In terms of the income tax situation, I don’t disagree with what he has said with regard to the referendum, but he has to be aware—he and I have discussed this already—that I could not recommend that the Assembly gives its legislative consent to the Wales Bill unless there is agreement on a fiscal framework beforehand. As the Bill currently stands, the Treasury can impose a financial settlement on the people of Wales without the agreement of this place, and that is wrong in principle—it does not apply in Scotland. So, agreement on a fiscal framework will be absolutely crucial to the agreement, I believe, of this body with regard to income tax devolution. As I say, I am not against it in principle, but the practice is important to make sure that Wales does not lose out.
Dealing briefly with some of the other issues that he raised, he is right to point out the challenges that exist with regard to the result of the EU referendum. I agree with him that providing confidence for business, and saying to business that Wales is open for business, is hugely important. We know that business hates uncertainty and, unfortunately, that uncertainty is still there. I accept what he says, that it is for both Governments to ease that uncertainty over the next few months.
I strongly agree with what he said about community cohesion. I heard stories last week, when I went to Llanelli and Swansea, of people feeling threatened because of the interpretation that a small minority had placed on the referendum result. It is incumbent on us all to make sure that a genie of prejudice that has been unleashed from a particular bottle is put firmly back into that bottle in the future.
Can I say to him, as far as the EU negotiation is concerned, it’s hugely important that all administrations in the UK are part of any negotiation? It is my view that any settlement, any deal, should be ratified by all four parliaments in order to get buy-in across the UK. There are some areas, of course, like agriculture and fisheries, where the UK Parliament has almost no role, and so it is absolutely right that in those areas, and indeed more widely, the ratification of this place and the other devolved parliaments should be obtained in order for the deal to be fully accepted across the whole of the UK.
Finally, I’m just going to mention the bill of rights. ‘Good luck with that one’, I say to him, because I spoke to the group that was looking at producing a bill of rights and I listened carefully to what Ministers have said about the bill of rights, and to me it doesn’t add anything at all to the current Human Rights Act 1998. So, we wait to see what such a bill of rights will actually say beyond the rhetoric and what it will mean particularly for the devolved countries as well. As far as I can see, I’m not sure what it adds to the legislation that we already have. But we’ll see how that develops over the course of the next few months, and obviously it will be important for not just the Welsh Government but for this place to give its views as to what that bill of rights might look like.
There will be other areas, other Bills, of course, where discussions will take place as those Bills proceed through Parliament. The Wales Bill will no doubt be one of them as we look forward to the future. But, as I said, in the course of the debate today, it’s an opportunity for Members to express their views, and the leader of the house will respond formally on behalf of the Government at the conclusion of the debate.