The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Jane Hutt.

We move on, then, to item 8 on our agenda today, which is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate on the first world war centenary and supporting the armed forces, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM6075 Paul Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the centennial anniversaries of the Battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the Battle of Jutland.

2. Pays tribute to those who fought in these and other battles during the First World War.

3. Honours the memory of both those who lost their lives and those who were casualties of the First World War, and other armed conflicts.

4. Believes the Welsh Government must provide greater support to Wales’s armed forces and veterans community during the fifth Assembly, including through:

a) establishing an Armed Forces & Veterans Commissioner, prioritising their specific need;

b) introducing a Veterans Card Scheme to extend privileges to former service personnel;

c) increasing funding for the Veterans’ NHS Wales service, to enhance its capacity and improve its ability to help veterans in need; and

d) improving data collection in order to: establish the health needs of veterans; identify the support needed by their family and carers; inform commissioning and service provision; and highlight the engagement needed with people in the armed forces, serving and/or at transition into civilian life.

Motion moved.

Diolch. We propose that the National Assembly for Wales notes the centennial anniversaries of the battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the battle of Jutland, pays tribute to those who fought in these and other battles during the first world war and since, and honours the memory of both those who lost their lives and those who were casualties in the first world war, and other armed conflicts.

On 7 July 1916, the infantrymen of the 38th (Welsh) Division, composed of miners from the Rhondda, farmers from Caernarfon and Anglesey, coal trimmers from the docks at Barry and Cardiff, bank workers from Swansea, and men from a whole host of other backgrounds and occupations from the counties of Wales, were ordered to make a frontal assault on a German-held line in front of a wood, roughly a mile in length, near the small village of Mametz, some 20 miles north-east of Amiens. It was just a week after the disastrous first day of the battle of the Somme, when over 19,000 men had been killed. The Welsh soldiers walked straight into the machine guns of the professional German soldiers well-entrenched at the edge of the wood. ‘All hell broke loose as machine guns opened up on us from the front and from the flank. We stood no chance and the boys were everywhere falling, but we kept moving forward,’ wrote Private Albert Evans of the 16th (Cardiff City) Battalion of the Welsh Regiment. In the words of another Welsh soldier: ‘Hell cannot be much worse.’ Four hundred were killed on the first day of what became a five-day battle. By its end, following fierce and confused hand-to-hand fighting within the wood, 4,000 men had been killed or wounded. We will remember them, as we must their contemporaries today.

The UK has a duty of care to its armed forces. This began as an unspoken pact between society and the military, possibly originating as far back as Henry VIII’s reign. The pact was formally codified as a covenant in 2000. It was not a law, but was reinforced by custom and convention. The armed forces covenant refers to the mutual obligations between the nations and their armed forces. It sets out what safeguards, rewards and compensation military personnel can expect in return for military service and the risks and hardships that can involve. The principles of the covenant were enshrined in law by the Armed Forces Act 2011. All 22 local authorities in Wales have in place an armed forces community covenant, requiring them to have elected member armed forces champions. But more is needed.

We regret the Welsh Government amendment stating that it should only consider the support for Wales’s armed forces and community that I will be proposing, when, as our motion states, the Welsh Government must provide this during the fifth Assembly term. We therefore urge the Welsh Government to listen to Wales’s armed forces community and support our motion unamended.

The Scottish Government introduced the Scottish Veterans Commissioner in 2014. The establishment of an armed forces commissioner for Wales is essential to support the specific needs of veterans and represent these to Welsh Government, and to properly scrutinise service delivery for veterans carried out by Welsh Government, NHS Wales and local authorities. Dedicated both to veterans and the wider armed forces community, the commissioner would also engage with the community and champion the many key third sector projects supporting veterans, so that they may be rolled out nationally with support by the Welsh Government.

In this context, we must recognise the UK Government’s armed forces covenant Libor funding for CAIS Wales’s Change Step veteran services, which works across Wales providing veterans with tailored peer support and specialist intervention. Having spoken at the 2013 launch of Change Step, I commend both its development since and its sister project, Listen In, supporting the role played by families and friends of veterans in promoting recovery from problems associated with military service. We must also welcome Libor funding to the First Choice Housing Association to support Wales Homes for Veterans—Alabaré.

Although the Ministry of Defence forces discount service and card are welcomed, providing money off items ranging from children’s toys to mobile phones, Welsh Conservatives have also long campaigned for a veterans card scheme in Wales. This would provide free bus travel, priority access to NHS treatments and home adaptations needed as a result of in-service injury or illness, as well as free access to leisure centres and Cadw sites. However, the Welsh Government has consistently kicked this issue into the long grass since 2014, when a veterans ID card task and finish group was set up. We therefore call on the new Welsh Government to begin immediate work on the veterans card.

We must increase funding for the Veterans’ NHS Wales service to enhance its capacity and improve its ability to help veterans in need and, actually, save money down the road too.In April, I visited a constituent living in a Wales Homes for Veterans property who, following his army discharge, was diagnosed with chronic and complex service-related post-traumatic stress disorder. He had attempted suicide in March after repeated attempts to secure appropriate NHS Wales intervention had failed. Further to my intervention, his community mental health team promised a care co-ordinator within four weeks. However, when I was asked to visit him again two months later, he had still heard nothing. When Wales Homes for Veterans chased this, they were told that the health board had lost six members of staff and were replacing them.

The staff at Wales Homes for Veterans also told me that another person being supported by them had been waiting four months since being assessed by the Veterans’ NHS Wales psychological therapist, who was now on sick leave. They also told me that Veterans’ NHS Wales was providing a good initial response to referrals, but in truth they said this is just a quick assessment meeting, and the patient is then back on the waiting list if they need psychological intervention.

Although an estimated 10,000 ex-forces personnel in Wales suffer from complex military PTSD—4 per cent to 5 per cent of the ex-forces population in Wales—a freedom of information request established that of 158 veterans referred to the service in 2012-13, only 100 were treated over a 12-month period, only 24 service user feedback forms were completed, and only 39 veterans were discharged. In contrast, a recent written answer by the Cabinet Secretary for health stated that there were 329 referrals in the same period and 529 in 2015-16, but added that this included extrapolated data. Another written answer from the Cabinet Secretary two weeks ago confirmed that the Welsh Government does not hold a figure for veterans suffering from PTSD in Wales.

As Dr Neil Kitchiner, principal clinician of Veterans’ NHS Wales, told the cross-party group on armed forces and cadets, chaired by Darren Millar, last year—after we’d successfully campaigned against the Welsh Government’s proposed £100,000 annual funding cut—he told us, or told the group, there’d been no funding increase since 2010 despite increasing workload for the service each year, that Welsh funding was below that of other UK NHS services, despite being the only national veterans’ service in the UK, and that, instead of a £100,000 top-up, an increase in their £485,000 annual budget to £1 million would help them meet Welsh Government target guidelines and prudent healthcare principles. He told us also equivalent funding in Scotland was £2.5 million.

It is clear both from my comments thus far and the available evidence that improved Welsh Government data collection is vital in order to establish the health needs of veterans, to identify the support needed by their family and carers, to inform commissioning and service provision, and to highlight the engagement needed with people in the armed forces, serving and/or at transition into civilian life. In fact, this is exactly what last month’s ‘Call to Mind: Wales’ report, commissioned by the Forces in Mind Trust and based on interviews with veterans and their families and people working in the voluntary and independent sector, called for. This report also called for increased Veterans’ NHS Wales capacity, stating that much more needs to be done to support the mental health needs of veterans in Wales. The need for improved data collection is further emphasised by the Royal British Legion’s ‘Count them in’ campaign, which calls for questions on the armed forces community to be included in the next UK census. As they say:

‘It is estimated there are between 6.5 and 6.7 million members of the armed forces community currently living in the UK’, representing about a tenth of the population, yet little is known about the exact numbers, location and needs of this significant group. In fact, there could up to 0.25 million veterans in Wales but, without this data, we cannot plan for the NHS Wales capacity needed, commission the wider services required, or provide the support on which families and carers depend, and we cannot deliver on the promise made by the armed forces covenant that those who serve or have served in the armed forces, and their families, are treated fairly. I commend this motion accordingly.

Thank you very much. I have selected the amendment to the motion and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to move formally amendment 1.

Gwelliant 1—Jane Hutt

In point 4 delete ‘must provide greater support to Wales’s armed forces and veterans community during the fifth Assembly, including through’ and insert ‘should consider’.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Thank you very much. Suzy Davies.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I thank my own party for tabling this debate today and for not being afraid to put forward the first three points of this motion? Because these points are not motherhood and apple pie or sentimental hand wringing. Loss of life on this scale is both unimaginable and unconscionable, with consequences for every community. They remind us, as if we need reminding in this week of the publication of the Chilcott inquiry report, that the decision of any state to go to war must be based on overwhelmingly compelling evidence. They remind us that other parts of the world are still suffering from genocide. And they remind us to get a little bit of perspective on the events of the last month or so.

Perspective, of course, is one of the great gifts of archiving and interpretation and I hope that the Welsh Government will look favourably on the Welsh Conservatives’ proposals for the multi-site military museum for Wales where we can reflect on war and peace and the place of the people of Wales in both.

I’d also like to raise a couple of practical issues on point 4 of the motion, because I’ve no doubt that all Members of this Assembly are sincere in their insistence in recognising their service to this country and other countries, and our wish to recognise that by prioritising and meeting the needs of every serviceman and woman.

Even though Welsh Conservatives believe that the Welsh Government could go much further than they have to meet those needs, we do acknowledge the support that has been provided to date and I’m fairly sure that the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps some other Members, if there were more of them here, might draw some attention to that. But I hope that those will also acknowledge that there’s a long way to go as well, and Welsh Conservatives will continue to call for an armed forces and veterans’ commissioner until we get one. No matter how excellent the services are that are available, in whatever sector, they are not necessarily well integrated nor are they easy to find. In the case of Welsh Government, that, I think, is partly down, again, to poor monitoring and evaluation.

Now, I expect the Cabinet Secretary to argue against the need for a commissioner because local authorities—all of them—have armed forces champions. Well, they might—but how accessible are they? It’s been like an episode of ‘Sherlock’ in my office this morning. While we finally got to the bottom of who has got the responsibility for this in Swansea council by going through a string of links relating to councillors, we’re still at a loss to identify who it is in Bridgend, although we did stumble across a PDF of a members’ report on the champion from 2013.

There is nothing intuitive or client-focused about this, there is nothing proactive about this, and no-one is being held accountable for this. A commissioner would help Welsh Government ensure that its hard work in this area is achieving results. And that’s all we want. I want it not just for servicemen and servicewomen, past and present, but for their families as well, because not every veteran will go through the extreme experiences that we’re going to be hearing about a bit more today, but those who do don’t always go through it alone; their family members are also affected. There is a duty, in my view, to make sure that close family members, who often become carers, are properly supported too. Because it’s often going to be those family members who take responsibility for trying to find help, who look at council websites and haven’t spent enough time on their X-Box to get the skills to negotiate the labyrinthine route to get that information. Please, Cabinet Secretary, make it easier for them. Help them and help the service leaver cope with the transition back into civilian life. I know you’ve got the will to do it, but the statistics for veterans who are unemployed, who are victims of substance abuse, prone to mental health problems—not just post-traumatic stress disorder–and who end up homeless are extremely worrying.

For almost every one of those individuals, there will be families in trouble and family members who don’t self-identify as carers. So, I’d be grateful, Cabinet Secretary, if you would confirm today that you will work with colleagues in Government to look at the carers strategy and evaluate, firstly, how well it meets and prioritises the needs of those who care for veterans, and, secondly, veterans who are themselves carers.

Some of the most disheartening data we have regarding ex-servicemen—and it is servicemen in particular—are the numbers who end up in prison and the effect that it has on them and their families. Returning to a stable family is the prime factor in an ex-offender’s chances of avoiding recidivism and the vulnerabilities that I’ve just mentioned. So, could I recommend the report of the cross-party group on children affected by parental imprisonment to you, Cabinet Secretary, as many of its findings will help assist Welsh Government in helping veteran ex-offenders and their families preserve that stability? Thank you.

I’m grateful for the chance to speak in this debate and I wish to start by welcoming the first world war commemoration programme for Wales that’s been developed by the Welsh Government in partnership with key organisations, including the Royal British Legion and the armed forces themselves.

We’ve already seen and continue to see a range of commemorations taking place to mark both the outbreak of the war and the significant battles that took place. In April last year, I was privileged to attend a commemoration at Whitehall to mark 100 years since the Gallipoli campaign, after my mum responded to a media notification advising that surviving relatives could attend to pay their respects. We applied and went to Whitehall to remember James Brockley, my great great uncle who was killed in action on 9 August 1915. His brother Jack was in the same battalion; he was injured when he found out the fate of his brother.

There are a great many initiatives and community events happening across the country to commemorate the centenary of the first world war, and I—[Interruption.] I intend to make the most of this opportunity to share with Members a fantastic initiative based in north-east Wales. In my own constituency of Delyn, Viv and Eifion Williams have established Flintshire Memorials, or ‘Names on Stone’ as it’s better known on Twitter. Flintshirewarmemorials.com is a community website staffed by volunteers—around 24 in total at the moment—and each volunteer takes a memorial in Flintshire to research; ‘Flintshire’ that is, as it was defined at the end of world war one. The researchers find out what they can using various sources—local, national and international—and family members of the researched servicemen have to contact the organisation to share more information, and photos, letters and so on then get added to the servicemen’s story.

Flintshire Memorials has gone from strength to strength after receiving a lottery grant of £10,000 in 2015 to develop the project and has since organised study trips to France and Flanders in April over the last two years, and is reaching out to the community to give talks and tell the stories of the servicemen to local groups, ranging from the Women’s Institute to rotary clubs, and, importantly, to schools.

As we take time to remember those who served in world war one during the centenary commemorations, let us also recognise volunteers and organisations like Flintshire Memorials who are doing sterling work reminding us of those who served and fell in our own communities across Wales. Diolch.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate today and, indeed, congratulate my own Conservative group for being the group that has constantly brought motions before the Assembly to reflect on some of the important initiatives that the Welsh Government could enact and actually show real solidarity with our veterans and service personnel, wherever they might serve. I know the Cabinet Secretary, in fairness, has shown a commitment as well himself, because he’s held the brief for the armed forces on several occasions through his journey through the Welsh Cabinet.

But I do regret, today, that the Welsh Government have put down an amendment that only calls to ‘consider’. Many of the points there—the four points in particular about a service commissioner, the introduction of a veterans card, support for veterans via the NHS Wales service, and improving the data collection—are long-running issues that I actually don’t believe need further consideration. Government should well be able now to be in a position to actually implement, over the lifetime of this Assembly, for five years, key improvements. I will take the intervention.

Let me draw your attention to one example of the issues surrounding this—the data-collection issue that the Member raised and Mark Isherwood raised about the Royal British Legion about data sharing around the survey. We’re supportive of the principle of that, but we have advice from the security services saying that this will put, potentially, service personnel at risk. I am not prepared to do that until we clarify that position. So, we aren’t ready to implement this because of security advice around that. We cannot put vulnerable adults in communities at risk because of data sharing because you think it’s the right thing to do. We will and do need to act on fact.

I agree we need to act on advice and the advice that’s given, but I do direct the Cabinet Secretary to the health committee’s report into this particular data-collection exercise that the health committee in the third Assembly undertook, and took extensive evidence from the Royal British Legion, from veterans and from families. The health committee did actually offer a route forward for the Government at that time, and I do believe—I think it was Edwina Hart who was the Minister who responded to that report—indicated a clear willingness to progress that agenda. So, I do hope that, obviously, we will not, at year 5 of this Assembly, be continuing to debate some of these points that really do find consensus around the Chamber, and I do hope that the Minister in his reply will be more forthcoming in acknowledging the support that can be given via those four initiatives that are contained in the motion.

I also do want to spend some of my contribution this afternoon reflecting on the commemorations that have been undertaken around the events of the first world war. Neil Hamilton, the leader of UKIP, and the leader of Plaid Cymru, and, indeed, the First Minister and the Presiding Officer, attended a very moving service last week at Mametz. To have sat there with the 800 plus, I would say, people who attended that service really was a huge privilege, to actually sit at an event that commemorated, I would suggest, an atrocity that happened, where young men were thrown forward time and time again in futile waves against machine guns to achieve so little, emphasised the bravery, the courage, of the individuals who were participating in the battle of the Somme, but actually the futility of some of the orders and directions that were coming down. It is most probably wrong, in some respects, as we stand here today, to try and measure ourselves against what the actions were 100 years ago, but, clearly, many, many families and many individuals and communities suffered a horrendous loss of life, and it is perfectly fitting and right that we do commemorate such events as Mametz, and we never ever forget the sacrifice that was made, not just in the first world war, but the second world war, and, indeed, the sacrifices of our armed services. Wales has always had a very noble tradition of providing recruits in all three sections of our armed services.

We do have to pay tribute to the role that—in modern engagement, very often it is humanitarian and peacekeeping roles that our armed forces undertake in many theatres across the whole of the world. Not just, obviously, in the European theatre, but across the world, their expertise is called for and is greatly received in humanitarian and peacekeeping missions. I do hope that this Cabinet Secretary will enlighten us as to some of the initiatives, via education and promotion, that the Government will engage with schools and youth organisations, so that, instead of just being an event on the calendar, many of these commemorative events can actually come to life and the next generation can feel an attachment and an affinity to support that memory and that legacy that so many people left.

But, above all, I do want to hear, importantly, from the Cabinet Secretary today what he’ll be doing, working with the Cabinet Secretary for health, in the support around mental health issues that will be available to veterans in our communities, wherever they might live. We cannot afford to have a postcode lottery. I’m very pleased that it was the Vale of Glamorgan Council that first started the process of the military covenant being adopted by local authorities. Councillor Janet Charles, at the time, was the lead member for that. It was a Conservative-led council that did that. I do believe that that covenant has been greatly attractive to many local authorities in the way that they bring forward the help and support that they offer in their local areas. But you have to link up what the local authorities are doing with what the local health board is doing, and indeed the initiatives of the Welsh Government. I do pay tribute to Darren Millar, to my side here, who has chaired the all-party group on the armed services here in the Assembly. That work, hopefully, greatly informs Members about what is undertaken in our name by our service personnel, wherever they might be serving.

So, I do hope that the Minister will reflect on the amendment that has been put down in the Government’s name today, and I do hope that he might just consider withdrawing that amendment and supporting the motion unamended, because I do think then we can really measure the context of the support the Government is giving to a valuable section of our community.

I thank the Conservatives for bringing this motion today for us to have an opportunity to debate and discuss this very important matter.

When we mark the centenary of the battles of the Somme, Mametz Wood and the battle of Jutland, we are remembering the loss of the lives of thousands of men. It is easy to forget, given the sheer numbers involved, that each number in the count of the dead represents an individual who left behind his family, his community, to fight and die in unimaginable circumstances.

For those who fought in the first world war, and those who have fought in every war since, we entered into a covenant with them that society would provide the support they need if and when they return. That means ensuring that there is adequate mental health care available and that there is support for them to find housing and employment. It means ensuring that their families and children are supported, that those who have been injured—and particularly those who have suffered life-changing injuries—receive the highest possible standard of healthcare.

Our remembrance should also include Wales’s proud legacy of striving for conflict resolution and seeking alternatives to war. Figures like Lord Llandinam, Liberal Member of Parliament and, later, Member of the House of Lords, whose writing on the use of force and international law and order was foundational to the United Nations charter. He was key in the establishment of Cardiff’s Temple of Peace and Health, which he wanted to be a memorial to those gallant men from all nations who gave their lives in the war that was to end all wars. We should keep that Welsh tradition in mind as we mark the centenaries this year. It has even more resonance and importance when we consider the nature of modern war. We are having this debate today in the shadow of the publication of the Chilcot report last week. One of the key findings of that report was that the armed forces were sent into Iraq without proper planning and without necessary equipment being made available to them. Many within the armed forces and the families of those who died see this, rightly, as a betrayal. The report also found that all avenues had not been exhausted in the pursuit of avoiding war in the first place.

The nature of war has changed, of course, since the first world war. The UN have claimed that modern armed conflict kills and maims more children than it does soldiers. While the exact statistics are disputed, it is roughly the case that civilian fatalities in wartime climbed from 5 per cent at the turn of the twentieth century to 15 per cent during world war one, to 65 per cent by the end of the second world war, and to more than 90 per cent in wars of the 1990s. When we choose to fight, we choose to engage in war that will hurt those who are not involved, and we displace many, many more.

Remembrance, of course, should not be a celebration but, rather, a meditation on those who have lost their lives and on how we can work to prevent conflict and the loss of life in the future. For those who return from conflict, the very least society should do is to ensure that they are properly cared for. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I congratulate the Conservative group on choosing this topic for debate today and I commend Mark Isherwood on the excellent way in which he introduced it. Andrew Davies has already referred to the great privilege that we party leaders had, along with the Presiding Officer, in being able to attend the commemoration of the centenary of the battle of Mametz Wood last week. I’ve been attending remembrance day celebrations of various kinds for many, many years and I always find them tremendously affecting, but I’ve never actually been to one of the first world war battlefield sites before, and it is unimaginable on a sunny day, with the corn waving in the fields, to imagine, 100 years ago, the carnage, the noise and the scenes of death and destruction that occurred then.

One of the most affecting things that I brought back from the battlefield were the stories of some of the Welsh soldiers who died on that day. In particular, Corporal Frederick Hugh Roberts, who had cheated death in the Senghenydd pit disaster on 17 October in 1913, because he’d had a successful bet on a horse, which led to a night of heavy drinking and he had a hangover, which kept him away from the pit that killed 439 of his workmates. Sadly, he perished in a hail of bullets on 10 July 1916. And, a pair of brothers Arthur and Leonard Tregaskis who had both emigrated to Canada together and returned to join up as volunteers to fight in the war; both of them died on the same day—7 July 1916. One can’t imagine, really, how, seeing what happened on that day, soldiers could carry on pushing forward through the barbed wire into no-man’s-land knowing, I presume, the almost certainty of being cut down. So, it is right that we should remember them and always remember them. One of the things that I’ve appreciated most in the course of a long time in politics is how we pay actually more regard to those who perished in the first world war and the second world war than perhaps we did in the days of my youth, and I’m pleased that younger people also attend these celebrations in such numbers today.

Like everybody else, I’m rather surprised that the Government has put down the amendment to this motion. I’m sure that none of them, actually, disagrees with the principle of what is being proposed here and I’m surprised that they don’t feel able to agree that we must provide the extra support that the motion calls for, but should only further consider it. I won’t add to the arguments that Andrew Davies has advanced, except to say that I agree with what he said absolutely. There are so many ways in which we can improve the provision of social services, housing, et cetera, for our veterans. People who are in the armed forces, generally speaking, aren’t really paid very much for what they do and they often have to put up with enormous stresses and strains in life. The incidents of marital break-ups are very great and that produces huge problems for both parties in civilian life, and there are all sorts of mental problems and pressures that they have to cope with as well. In the first world war, of course, many, many soldiers were shot for cowardice when, in fact, they were suffering from stress and other conditions which, then, were unrecognised. I think it behoves us all—it certainly behoves Government—to give the maximum possible support to our servicemen and women and veterans as they make the transition to private and civilian life.

We haven’t time to go into the details too much, but I’m very much in favour of a standardised question for public bodies to ask to prove identification of members of the armed forces in the provision of their services. I don’t, I’m afraid, accept the excuse given by the Cabinet Secretary for this not to be done, because we know so many cases in our constituency work where people would benefit if they were known to have been—[Interruption.] I’m afraid that Alun Davies, of course, yet again, disgraces himself and perhaps this Chamber, by treating with some levity a very serious matter, and he would do better, perhaps, to listen rather than gibber away in this place, as he so often does. [Interruption.]

Thank you, thank you.

But, there are so many cases where people who feel that they’ve not got what they needed out of the health service claim afterwards that the reason for that provision was, or rather, that those in the health service who didn’t understand their needs, did not identify that they were armed forces veterans and their status was simply not recognised or recorded by the staff who dealt with them.

So, my time is up. I would like to commend this motion to the house and I hope that it will pass unamended.

Thank you. I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Members will be aware that, in my recent oral statement, I set out the Welsh Government support for the armed forces community in Wales. Good progress is being made across all of Wales in supporting our armed forces community, and I believe that if we continue to work collaboratively with our partners, sharing resources and best practice, we can build on the success. Can I also pay tribute—they are not in the title of the debate—to the families, partners and children of the armed forces personnel who often get forgotten about in terms of the support that they need? This is something that I’m very keen to make sure that this Government looks at—the holistic support for the families of the armed forces.

I agree and I’m pleased that point 1 of the motion notes the centenary of the three momentous battles of the first world war. Collectively, the battles of Somme, Mametz Wood and Jutland led to the sacrifice of huge numbers of Welsh soldiers to protect the freedom that we have today, and they should not be forgotten.

Will you take an intervention?

Indeed.

In my comments, I forgot to mention—I should have mentioned, and I hope you’ll commend them as well—the Western Front Association, which was so integral to the commemoration of Mametz Wood. I know they work very closely with the Welsh Government and the armed services, and many of those members are in the Vale of Glamorgan.

I’m grateful for the Member’s intervention, and, of course, there are many that we will not mention today, but should not be forgotten in terms of their action, which saved many lives for us so that we can live in the peace that we survive in. We continue to commemorate those who made the ultimate sacrifice, and I am pleased that the Welsh Government has contributed to the memorial erected to mark the bravery and sacrifice of the thirty-eighth division at Mametz Wood. The First Minister attended the national service of remembrance there on 7 July to honour their courage and bravery.

I also support the second and third points in the motion. The Welsh Government, through its Cymru’n Cofio—Wales Remembers 14-18 programme, pays tribute to those who fought for their country, and we will continue to work with the partner organisations to mark the contribution of our armed forces to the defence of the country and the way of life. The Welsh Government continues its support for the armed forces days held in north and south Wales. These events allow the people of Wales the opportunity to show their appreciation and gratitude to those currently serving and to our ex-service personnel. I attended the one with Darren Millar and many other Members in north Wales recently. They also provide an opportunity for the younger generation to learn and appreciate the sacrifices made by servicemen and women in defending our freedom.

In taking forward our devolved commitments, the Welsh Government will continue to support the armed forces covenant. The package of support reflects our moral obligation to ensure that families and members of the armed forces are not disadvantaged because of their life in the forces. We will work collaboratively, again, with our partners to refresh our package of support later this year, listening to the valuable feedback. We will be publishing a new document called ‘Welcome to Wales’, tailored specifically for serving personnel and their families. I think that, just picking up a point that Suzy Davies made there around the covenant and making sure information is shared and available to individuals, whether serving, caring or families, it is a really important point. I met with the armed forces expert group this morning—again, my first meeting in this portfolio with them. But work has been ongoing about gathering the best evidence and the best practice, and, actually, there was a programme that’s being considered in Warwickshire, I think the local authority is, where they’re looking at an app-based programme for service users and for providers of services, where they can get a very quick review of what services and signposts are available. So, we are going to be looking at that, seeing if we can introduce that across Wales as well. So, I agree with the Member—we can do much more in terms of helping and signposting individuals as we go through. But it’s really important that I listen to the expert group, because they are at the front end of this, both families and serving personnel.

We have proposed an amendment to point 4 to reflect the Welsh Government’s commitment to engaging with ideas from all parts of the Assembly. We have concerns about some of the Conservative proposals, but we do not want to reject them out of hand. This is an important issue for us too, and I will continue to work and strive to see what support we can get—non-partisan—where we can achieve success on these suggestions.

With regard to the proposal of the armed forces veterans commissioner, we have undertaken some work on this issue and in 2015, in June, members of the expert group met with the Scottish Veterans Commissioner to consider lessons learned and the possible value of a similar post here. We will continue to consider the veterans commissioner’s work in Scotland, along with the best practice elsewhere. We need to be convinced that appointing a commissioner—and I with interest note that the Conservatives want a commissioner for this, but any other commissioners that we’ve had, generally they’ve voted against, in principle, on many occasions—would provide, in this guise, practical benefits for all our veterans. It is worth nothing that I am looking and will continue to look at that.

It should be noted that serving members of the armed forces are the responsibility of the Ministry of Defence. However, we do recognise the valuable contribution they pay and their work within our community. Again, I recognise the work that the Vale of Glamorgan did around the community covenant, and I pay tribute also to Councillor Anthony Powell, who obviously now continues the good work. I think there are a lot of things that other authorities can learn from in terms of the Vale, and I continue to push that. I will be writing out to local authorities this week on the basis of the expert panel group this morning and my views around that.

In regard to the veterans ID card that Members raised, options to develop a veterans ID card were considered by the task and finish group—again, made up of a reference group in the expert team. They concluded that the value of the introduction of a veterans ID card then would be limited. I will give that further consideration because I think that if it’s the right thing to do then we should do that, but what I do believe is that it shouldn’t be based upon partisan rules; it should be based on fact, and if we can evidence that it’s the right thing to do I’m very happy to do so.

Can I pay tribute to many of the Members and the contributions that they made in the Chamber today? I heard a slight about my colleague Alun Davies. I have to say that Alun Davies is a great Member for Blaenau Gwent in terms of representing his constituency, and I know that he represents the armed forces and members of that community very well. I unfortunately think that Neil Hamilton’s contribution about discharging the duty around ignoring security advice where people are vulnerable in our community is very dangerous, and very foolish to even suggest. I may suggest the Member wishes to reconsider his comments in that aspect.

With regards to point 4, we will consider the current funding provided to the Veterans’ NHS Wales. We will continue to provide £585,000 a year maintain the unique Veterans’ NHS Wales service. We have a good relationship with the Veterans’ NHS Wales service. Together, we will consider the options to enhance its capacity so that where veterans are in need, they receive the support that they are entitled to. Also—it’s very rare you’ll hear me say this, Presiding Officer—but Mark Isherwood’s introduction was very useful in setting the scene. However, I think we must acknowledge that we recognise that there’s much more to do to support our veterans and armed forces communities in Wales, but we are certainly not lagging behind anywhere in the UK. There are still great opportunities. The expert veterans group do suggest that we are leading the way, and I would hope that the Member who responds to this debate would recognise that and give credit where credit’s due.

Finally, we are very willing to consider ways of improving data collection. I am aware of the lack of data available, and it has implications on future policy and service planning. The ability to understand the needs of our armed forces community is something that, across Government, we are looking at—how we can support that better, but with the caveat of the security issue I mentioned earlier on. I am supportive of the need to gather further inspiration but would like to fully assess that programme. The expert group that we host will explore this further, but I’m thankful to the Members opposite for bringing this debate today to celebrate the fact we’ve got a fantastic armed forces service here in Wales. They do a tremendous job in our community and long should we support them.

Thank you very much. I call on Darren Millar to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I thank everybody in the Chamber who has contributed to this debate? Most of the debate has been very good spirited and I think it’s important that we take things forward in support of our armed forces community and the veterans that we have in Wales on a cross-party basis wherever possible. I’m pleased that the Minister put on record his support for much of what we are proposing today in our motion, notwithstanding that he will still be supporting the Government amendment, and that that will not be withdrawn. I want to pay tribute to the Government, to be fair, for the excellent programme of activities around the centenary of the first world war that have been organised, and for the way in which there has been dignity in the commemorative events, and for the fact that they’re not just happening here in Wales, but where there is an important place, like Mametz, we’re also represented there and holding events overseas. I think that the impact that that particular service had on those who saw it on the television or were indeed present, as Andrew R.T. Davies, Neil Hamilton and others have indicated—it had a big emotional impact on those who were there, particularly hearing some of those individual stories that have been brought to the debate as well.

I also want to thank the Welsh Government for continuing to support Armed Forces Day, both in north and south Wales, when it occurs, and, indeed, the investment that you continue to give into the Veterans’ NHS Wales service. There is a capacity problem, though, in that service, and I’m pleased that the Minister has reflected on that and said he will look at whether there’s an opportunity to provide some more investment. It is clearly unacceptable that people are still waiting too long, sometimes, for an assessment. As the Minister wil know, and others in this Chamber will know, particularly when mental health issues are presenting, it’s often important to strike while the iron’s hot and, when somebody wants to engage with a service, to give them some rapid access.

I am a little bit concerned at the advice that’s been given to the Minister around security in relation to the census. I’m a big supporter as well of the Royal British Legion’s campaign ‘Count them in’, because it is important that we know where our veteran community is in order that we can focus our services on them. I can sort of understand it for serving personnel, in terms of security concerns, but certainlty for veterans, those who have not been in active service for many years, I think there must be some way of getting around the concerns in order to get things right. I want to pay tribute to the Royal British Legion, to SSAFA and to the many other organisations that support veterans in communities across Wales.

Mark Isherwood did make an excellent opening speech, setting the scene. He went into graphic detail about the futility of those battles on the Somme, and in particular at Mametz Wood, where many people lost their lives. There was a parade in Ruthin over the weekend, where 4,000 poppies were paraded down the streets to commemorate the lives of those Welsh soldiers who were lost over the course of that battle. When you think about the lives that were lost in the battle of the Somme on the first day—30,000 people, which is the population of the town of Colwyn Bay, the biggest population centre on the north Wales coast, gone in just a 24-hour period—it is pretty horrific. That’s why we’ve got to do what we can, not just to remember those events, but to reflect on them in order that we can avoid similar horrific events taking place in the future.

I’m very proud that CAIS and their Change Step programme is located and has its headquarters in my constituency, in Colwyn Bay. Of course, it’s a Wales-wide service that that organisation provides, but it’s in a precarious state. It has funding that will see it through to March of next year, but beyond that, there’s no security. I do implore you, Minister, to look at whether there’s an opportunity to fund that service, to make it sustainable into the future, because there is absolutely no doubt, when you speak to people who’ve engaged with that particular programme, the Change Step programme, that it has made a radical difference to their lives—very often grabbing them when they’re on that spiral of decline, having had problems with PTSD, and it’s pulled them back up onto their feet and set them right. And, of course, it extends support to the family network that you mentioned as well, Cabinet Secretary—a very important part of the jigsaw, which is often overlooked and ignored.

Suzy Davies reminded us, of course, that we shouldn’t just focus on this centenary event, but we also need some permanent commemorative activities and things that we can engage with all of the time and all year round. We have an idea for a national military museum at different locations across Wales that people can engage with. I think that that is an excellent idea that the Welsh Government ought to pick up.

On our proposal for an armed forces commissioner, again, I’m pleased that you haven’t shut the door completely on that, Minister, and that you’re looking at the evidence from Scotland, but remember, the Scottish commissioner is purely for veterans, not for the whole of the armed forces family. What we’re proposing here is slightly different from what’s available and on the table in Scotland. In terms of affordability and the way that they can drive improvement in services, it’s important that you don’t completely overlook it and that you do look to a commissioner who can hold those armed forces champions in our local authorities and in the NHS to account for delivery on the objectives that we all have, indeed.

Hannah Blythyn, of course, made reference to some of the activities and the work of Flintshire War Memorials in her own constituency, and I think it’s important to reflect on all of those.

Steffan Lewis—very briefly, you made reference to Chilcot and, of course, this debate comes hot on the heels of the publication of that report and, quite rightly, you reflected on the very difficult decisions that Governments often take, sometimes with hindsight that may have been different when people look back on history. But it is important that we reflect on the peacekeeping missions now that many of our troops are engaged in around with the world, and that we do all we can to support those who are in active service and who’ve had active service in the past across the country.

So, I commend the motion to you. I do hope that you’ll be able to support it unamended.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. We’ll defer this item until voting time. And it’s been agreed that voting time will take place before the short debates. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time. Okay, thank you.

Voting deferred until voting time.