Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:45 pm on 13 September 2016.
Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. You’ll be pleased to know that I am going to ask you about the land transaction tax and not about an array of hypothetical other taxation, be it the land tax or wealth tax or whatever. I think we’ve got enough on our plate dealing with this piece of legislation. You mentioned that this was a historic moment: the first Welsh tax in several hundred—I think it was 800 years. I felt like it took me 800 years to read the document. Actually, it’s quite a hefty document here, Cabinet Secretary, and there is a lot in there for us to consider before this finally does become the model of land transaction tax that is implemented across Wales. Whilst I acknowledge the more radical direction that Adam Price and Plaid Cymru put out earlier, I’m pleased that you’ve adopted the previous finance Minister’s maxim of keeping things the same as across the border and only deviating where absolutely necessary. Certainly, in the first instance, in the first few years of the operation of this tax, I think that’s a sensible move.
You mention no change for change’s sake. I could say that’s a good Conservative approach, Cabinet Secretary, but that would probably be antagonistic, so I’ll leave it at that. You mentioned consistency—and you were asked by both Mike Hedges and Adam Price about consistency—I’m sure you recognise it’s easy to talk about consistency, but can I ask you how are you ensuring that this consistency is taking place and will take place in practice? Is it on the one hand simply a case of copying English law where appropriate, or listening to experts in the field who may have their own issues with the law across the border and areas of where they think it can be better here and where, indeed, it might be worse across the border? How are you balancing that consistency? And—you have touched on this—how are you engaging stakeholders in an ongoing process as the tax is developed and, indeed, as it beds in?
We know that there have been concerns and anxieties in the tax world about the situation of having a different tax regime here. Land transaction tax, as you said, is particularly vulnerable to this criticism because of the way that people buy and sell houses along the border. I appreciate there may only be a few properties where the land is across the border, but there are many, many properties within close proximity of the border that will come into the decision-making process as people decide whether they’re going to be buying houses here or in England. So, how are you proposing to deal with those concerns of tax experts? There will need to be an understanding of the differences; how you are promoting this understanding? I believe from my meeting with you last week that tax experts and stakeholders who have seen the legislation already have been reassured to a certain extent, and I think that’s down in no small part to a lot of the hard work that has gone in from your staff, actually, in trying to make sure that, in the first instance, this is as workable as possible. How are you going to keep them reassured over the months and years to come so that they don’t lose confidence in the process?
Over the summer, we’ve seen changes to UK stamp duty in terms of tackling tax avoidance. You mentioned the GAAR. As we discussed in our meeting last week, in England, tax advisers are now set to be liable for avoidance as well, not just the people whose tax forms they are. It will be advisers and people filling out their tax form and paying the tax in the first instance. I think it’s important that the new Welsh legislation incorporates these changes. How is this now going to be achieved? I don’t think it’s in that document at the moment. How are you ensuring that the legislation is, firstly, futureproofed and, secondly, regularly updated with any changes that the Assembly deems necessary over the years to come? I don’t think this is going to be an automatic updating any more as this tax and other taxes in Wales diverge from English taxes, so it’s important that we know this legislation and other tax legislation will be futureproofed.
Two final things, Cabinet Secretary: do you agree with me that the aim here, the holy grail if you like, should not be just to replace the UK tax when it is switched off with a satisfactory land transaction tax, but to prove the critics wrong and to do something better here in Wales, something that taxpayers in Wales will actually look to as an improvement on what has gone before? It’s easier said than done, I know—and let’s face it, paying taxation will not be anyone’s first choice, but it is a fact of life, and it’s something that I’m sure that you and your Government would want to make as easy as possible for people here in Wales.
Very finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, on the issue that was raised by Plaid Cymru and Mike Hedges on the fiscal framework, yes, I think that you cannot see this land transaction tax and the fiscal framework in separation. Whilst it’s true and inevitable and we all understand that there will, of course, be a reduction in the block grant to Wales when these taxes come into force, what we don’t want to see—any of us across this Chamber—is an unfair reduction in the block grant. In the first instance, that might not happen, but as the years go by and you have issues such as inflation and population change, there is a danger that, unless the fiscal framework is operating properly, Wales could be short-changed in the future. What discussions did you have with the Treasury, and have you had with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, to make sure that they fully understand and appreciate our concerns here, to make sure that when these taxes do come into effect, they work as best as they possibly can?