6. 6. Statement by the Chair of the Finance Committee on the Budget Process

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 2:37 pm on 21 September 2016.

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Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru 2:37, 21 September 2016

(Translated)

Thank you to Adam for those questions. I wouldn’t have expected any less than those very detailed and interesting questions from him, and it’s true to say—. There are three things, truth be told, that I think he had to say: first of all, the rather thin information that he described, and that has been a concern of committee members for several years now. Perhaps the most obvious one is when you look at the allocation of funding for the health service in Wales, which is just very simply put to health boards, and there’s no understanding then of how the funding is then used below that level. The committee has an interest in improving that information. That has to be done on a joint basis and in agreement with the Government, so it comes down to the protocol that we will be able to agree with the Government, but I also suggest that the other committees, the subject committees, have a role to request additional information. And, sometimes, indeed, by the time that those committees look at the budget, there is additional information available. I do hope that the two things that we’ve suggested, the protocol and the additional time, are going to add to the opportunities to draw down that information, but, at heart, Adam is asking for more information at the very beginning. I think the Finance Committee has heard that request and is eager to fulfil it.

The second part is what you will do with the information and whether there is a need for independent scrutiny of that, and, very interestingly, this arose in evidence from the Cabinet Secretary in committee this morning. Adam will know very well that there’s a budgetary framework agreement in Scotland, which means there has to be an independent budgetary office to report on the financial situation in order to have a voice on that in any dispute between the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament. And the same is true—the Member mentioned Congress, but the same is true in Canada as well. There will be, I think, a need to search for that and seek that independent voice in this process. Whether that comes from an independent office whether that comes from an independent office or other protocols with, for example, the Office of Budgetary Responsibility in London, using their resources and skills, we haven’t discussed in committee yet, but it certainly is something that we are aware of, and we are eager to lead on that discussion in this Assembly.

The final point—well, yes, it’s very interesting. When you look at the budget that is proposed, passing it or rejecting it are the options, of course. That’s what I was referring to at the end of my statement when I spoke about a financial or budgetary Bill. Of course, when you introduce a Bill, you can amend it and you can change it. There are very interesting questions arising from that. There’s no time to go through all of those, but there are very interesting questions about whether the Assembly could add to expenditure or just cut expenditure, whether the Assembly can increase taxes or just decrease taxes. There are different rules, as Adam Price will know better than I—there are different rules in different countries. But, in terms of the committee looking at this issue, I’m happy to confirm that we’ve had a meeting last week with the parliamentary budget office in Canada where this was a topic of discussion and where we discussed what Canada’s doing in terms of the federal parliament and regional, state parliaments. So, it’s a very live question, but, certainly, if this place is to grow into a proper Senedd for Wales, then we will have to, to all intents and purposes, have the budget introduced as a Bill that can be amended by Assembly Members.