We now move to the short debate and I call on Neil McEvoy to speak on the topic he has chosen, which is bringing lobbying in Wales out into the open. Neil McEvoy.

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Lobbying in Wales—this isn’t something that we should talk about; it’s something that we need to talk about. My aim today is to reopen the debate that was started here on lobbying some years ago. For the health of Welsh democracy, we must regulate commercial lobbying and bring it out of the shadows. We must protect this institution of the Welsh Assembly.

Lobbying is an industry that has grown hugely in recent times. In the UK, it’s now worth over £2 billion. That sum of money alone should tell us that regulation is needed. In the previous Assembly, the Standards of Conduct Committee undertook a review into lobbying, but the recommendations were weak and fell short of providing any kind of regulation. The First Minister thinks that rules for lobbyists are not needed. This seems to be a wider part of the culture in the Assembly, refusing to acknowledge the lobbying that is going on here. The last Presiding Officer went as far as writing to Westminster to ask that Wales be left out of any legislation on lobbying. She said, and I quote,

‘we were not facing the same kind of negative issues surrounding access to elected members that Westminster was’.

Well, from my short time in the Assembly here, it’s clear to me that we are facing those same issues. My requests for Ministers’ diaries have been refused. I think that’s worth saying again: Welsh Ministers refusing to disclose who they are meeting with. Why? Why is that? It’s impossible to see the calls made by Ministers on their public phones—their public phones—which we pay for.

In the autumn, an anonymous whistleblower alleged that a decision was made not to approve Welsh Government funding for GlobalWelsh. The business was notified of this by a letter dated 5 July. It was alleged that the lobbyist, who I won’t name at this stage, got in touch with the Minister and he reversed his decision. I was told that there was no paperwork or analysis to support any such change. On 7 July, the Welsh Government published a decision notice stating that the Cabinet Secretary had agreed to support the establishment of a community interest company, GlobalWelsh, to develop a network, and that seems to contradict the letter of 5 July somewhat. The whistleblower seemed to be correct in that the freedom of information request shows that there was no basis on paper for any change of decision. Now, I’m not alleging any wrongdoing here; what I do think is that this kind of allegation shows there is a great need for greater transparency and openness. Regulation will protect everyone—lobbyists, Ministers and the public.

After May 2011, when I was deputy leader of Cardiff council, I couldn’t get a meeting with the Minister—just couldn’t get a meeting. And I was told by people who know what they’re talking about that if you pay £3,000 to a lobbying firm, a meeting with a Welsh Government Minister could be organised. Now, I do stress that the cash is not for the politician, it’s for the lobbying firm. Therefore, I’m alleging that cash for access does exist in Cardiff Bay. And I challenge any Minister here, any Minister present, to say on the record that no lobbyist has ever facilitated an introduction to them. They won’t be able to say it, in my opinion. So, for the former Presiding Officer to claim that lobbying of a particular nature doesn’t go on here is not only inaccurate, but fairly insulting to the Assembly and the Welsh public. The last Presiding Officer also said that it should be for the Assembly to decide how to regulate lobbying, and on that we agree. But, so far, there is no legislation. I think the point of being left out of the Westminster legislation was not to leave Wales completely unprotected, but it was so that we could confront the lobbying industry that surrounds this institution and introduce world-leading legislation on lobbying ourselves.

We need to arrive at a place in the Assembly where it is open to the public, but not wide open for lobbyists. And that is why I’m proposing that the Government introduces legislation on lobbying with a register of lobbyists that will achieve three things. We would simply know who the lobbyists are because they would have to sign the register. We would know who was lobbying who and for what, so if a registered lobbyist met with a Government Minister, that would be officially recorded, and the purpose of that meeting would be known. Thirdly, we should know how much is being paid to the lobbying firm for that access. That’s crucial. If we don’t do this, then lobbying will continue to go on in the shadows, which is a recipe for corruption.

During the EU referendum debate, the EU was perceived by many as not being for them. There are 30,000 lobbyists in Brussels—75 per cent of European legislation being affected by them. And from what I’ve learned from people who work in Brussels, it’s impossible for anybody with any importance to go hungry at lunchtime, because there are so many free dinners, free lunches, thanks to the lobbyists’ business cards—their business credit cards. And if we look at what happened in the EU referendum, clearly in Wales, it’s on a smaller scale here. But if you look at the Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party, and the support they got, then it should be a cause for concern, because we cannot take things for granted, and we cannot ignore the Bay bubble lobbying culture.

In many ways, Wales is absolutely ripe for lobbying—we run our own health service, the school system too, we make laws. We’re fortunate at the moment because lobbying firms have been more interested in England than they have in Wales. But when they’re done privatising England’s public services, where will they focus their attention next? And, worryingly, where lobbyists have pressed the Welsh Government, they’ve met with considerable success. In 2013—the Welsh Government set about introducing home energy efficiency targets, with a 40 per cent reduction in carbon emissions. Now, instead, the Government opted for just 8 per cent after intense lobbying from the housing developers. At the time, Friends of the Earth publicly said that they were gobsmacked by the way that developers had rolled over the Welsh Government. Later, it turns out that major developers, like Persimmon Homes, are clients of lobbyists in Cardiff, and that is why we need a register.

It’s true that some lobbying firms voluntarily register with the Association of Professional Political Consultants, but a quick scan of the register shows what we’re up against. The British Soft Drinks Association is represented by lobbyists. They’ve been arguing against any kind of sugar tax, which is a key proposal in my party’s manifesto to deliver 1,000 extra doctors. The World Health Organization has also been urging countries to introduce this tax. The British Soft Drinks Association has also fought against any plans to ban the sale of highly sweetened and caffeinated energy drinks for children.

The problem with a voluntary register is that we know little about what is really going on and who is influencing what decision. The banking collapse showed that self-regulation just doesn’t work. Many firms also operate across the UK, which means it’s impossible to know whether they’re actually influencing Northern Ireland, Scotland or, indeed, Wales. One of the most dangerous aspects of lobbying is the revolving door that has been established between this Assembly and the lobbying firms trying to influence it. These firms are increasingly filled with familiar faces—former AMs, special advisers, former Government officials—and we should all realise that information is a valuable currency, and once gleaned, sometimes informally, information is sold to the highest bidder.

One of the arguments that lobbyists made against the Welsh register in the Standards of Conduct Committee report was that it’s impossible to define what a lobbyist is. But mandatory registers of lobbyists exist in several countries. The Australian Government has legislation that means, and I quote,

‘Any lobbyist who acts on behalf of third-party clients for the purposes of lobbying Government representatives must be registered on the Register of Lobbyists and must comply with the requirements of the Lobbying Code’.

It’s the law.

The Canadian House of Commons has mandated that a commissioner of lobbying maintains a register of lobbyists with regulations prescribing the form and manner in which lobbyists must register their activities when they communicate with federal and public office holders.

In France, the National Assembly has a register that is maintained by the General Secretariat of the Presidency of the National Assembly. In the US, mandatory lobbyists’ disclosures must be filed electronically every quarter when lobbying a member of the US Senate and lobbying firms are required to file separate representations and registrations for each client. Closer to home, Scotland is currently passing a lobbying Act that will lead to a register of lobbyists and also sets out what regulated lobbying is.

The legislation at Westminster, which the former Presiding Officer asked that we be left out of, created a register of lobbyists. In Wales, we have nothing and we actually need to go much further than a register—we need to know the nature of the contract between commercial lobbying firms and the clients so that it’s clear who they’re trying to represent and for what purpose. I think it’s quite straightforward. It is time that we joined Australia, Canada, France, the United States and even Scotland and Westminster in introducing robust legislation on lobbying.

We can bring lobbying out into the open and ensure that there’s a transparent culture in this Assembly and that’s why I’m calling on the Welsh Government to introduce lobbying legislation without delay because it’s the right thing to do. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. Have you indicated that you may allow a Member to have a minute of your time?

Yes.

And is it Jayne Bryant?

Jayne Bryant, yes.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I’m pleased to contribute as the Chair of the Standards of Conduct Committee. In the last Assembly, the standards committee undertook an inquiry into lobbying and the report was compiled by representatives of all parties and unanimously agreed by the fourth Assembly.

Since this report there have been changes to legislation in Westminster and Holyrood and as a consequence of this, and to ensure we guard against any complacency, the standards committee agreed to undertake a new inquiry into lobbying in the autumn term. We have asked the commissioner for standards to undertake some initial work on this. He will discuss with other UK Parliaments their arrangements and how they’re working in practice, and I think how they’re working in practice is a really crucial point. So, the commissioner will report back to the committee in November, at which point we will agree the next steps for the inquiry and I’d like to assure all Members here today that the committee will maintain a watching brief on this. Thank you for the time.

Thank you. I call on Jane Hutt to reply to the debate.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I do welcome the opportunity to respond to this debate as it does allow me to reiterate the Welsh Government’s position on the issue of lobbying of Ministers. It is a very straightforward position. I’m very glad to make it clear today that Ministers do not meet commercial lobbyists and I’m grateful that you allowed the Chair of the standards committee to update on the committee’s work, with a new Chair in the fifth session, and on the important work that they’re undertaking in this area.

Of course, it has been subject to scrutiny over recent years. But I’m glad that now more work is being undertaken by the committee and that the commissioner will be responding in due course. And, of course, you have drawn attention to previous work. The Members here will be aware that in May 2013 the Assembly’s Standards of Conduct Committee published a report on the Assembly’s arrangements in relation to lobbying and I think it is worth reflecting on that report. It followed an extensive consultation and a review of the arrangements by the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards undertaken in 2012. He reported

‘that it was the unanimous view of all those consultees who operate in Wales and/or in the National Assembly, that lobbying practices are essentially transparent and adequately policed and regulated’.

But he also said—and this is the independent standards commissioner for Wales—that it was a fact that no complaint against a Member relating to lobbying had been made in recent years or, indeed, as far as the commissioner could ascertain, since the National Assembly was formed. So, it is not surprising, therefore, that the commissioner did conclude firmly, and I quote,

‘that the arrangements currently in place for regulating lobbying, as it relates to Members of the National Assembly, are essentially sufficiently robust and fit for purpose.’

That was a conclusion that was endorsed by the Standards of Conduct Committee at that time. And the committee directly addressed the question of a possible register of lobbyists but concluded that it was neither a reasonable or proportionate response in Wales to the concerns that had been raised at that time about lobbying activity—concerns raised solely at the UK level but not at all in Wales. When the committee published its report, the First Minister considered it carefully in the context of how Welsh Ministers operate and Ministers don’t and didn’t meet commercial lobbyists then, just as they don’t now, as I said in my opening remarks. And since neither the standards commissioner nor the committee had found evidence of a problem, the First Minister concluded that there was no case for action in respect of Welsh Ministers and that continues to be the case today. Nothing that I’ve heard from the Member today causes me to question that decision.

Members will also be aware that public affairs professionals in Wales are committed to operating professionally, responsibly and transparently, and their membership organisation Public Affairs Cymru has demonstrated this by proactively developing and implementing a code of conduct to which all of its members are committed to and must uphold. I welcome this code and the evidence it provides that the public affairs profession in Wales is determined to be, and is seen to be, both professional and ethical.

Of course comparisons will always be made with what happens elsewhere and, yes, the UK Government has established a register of consultant lobbyists. And that’s perhaps not surprising, given that it has always been in Westminster that lobbying controversies have arisen. However, the register only covers consultant lobbying and that means it covers only a small proportion of the UK’s lobbying industry. In fact, it currently has only 114 registered. So, the UK arrangement doesn’t represent a model of comprehensive public access to information about lobbying. I’ve already said that Ministers do not meet commercial lobbyists, but they do, of course, meet many people and organisations and consider a wide range of views as part of the formulation of Government policy, but the ministerial code makes it clear that the basic facts of all such formal meetings between Ministers and outside interest groups should be recorded. All Ministers are required to comply with the ministerial code, and the First Minister is accountable for their conduct. And, as he has made clear on many occasions, the First Minister will not hesitate to act if he has evidence of a breach of the code in any respect. In turn, the First Minister is accountable to this Assembly, and this Chamber would no doubt require him to defend his decisions here on any matter referred to him under the code that had not been addressed satisfactorily.

A further assurance of openness and transparency is the Assembly’s Public Accounts Committee, with its remit to examine the economy, efficiency and effectiveness with which resources are employed in the discharge of public functions in Wales. It has an important role in holding the Government to account. And I do respect the Member’s right to raise this question as the subject of a short debate, but there isn’t evidence to justify introducing new arrangements in Wales on lobbying. I hope I have reassured the Member that the history of this Assembly and Welsh Government demonstrates a shared commitment to monitor this effectively and appropriately. And the Welsh Government is committed—and I think this is the most important point in response to the Member’s short debate today—the Welsh Government is committed to making transparency and accountability to the public a fundamental principle of how we operate.

Will the Minister take an intervention?

No, I think the Minister has finished. Thank you. That brings today’s proceedings to a close. Thank you.

The meeting ended at 18:32.