[R] signifies the Member has declared an interest. [W] signifies that the question was tabled in Welsh.

I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66 and I call on Eluned Morgan to ask that urgent question.

What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government in light of the Ministry of Defence’s announcement that it intends to close several sites in Wales? EAQ(5)0059(CC)

I thank the Member for her question. I was not notified by the UK Government ahead of yesterday’s announcement, but, given the nature of it, I will be seeking an urgent, early discussion with the UK Ministers.

Thank you, and that’s very concerning to hear that you weren’t even advised of this announcement. The announcement, of course, of the closure and sale of Brecon barracks, Sennybridge storage compound and Cawdor barracks will cause significant uncertainty in Mid and West Wales and beyond. These are areas that have a long and proud military tradition. There’s been a barracks in Brecon since 1805, and soldiers from the barracks have served in every armed conflict since the start of the nineteenth century. Closing these military bases is a huge cause of sorrow and it is devastating to the families who’ve been based there over past decades that these well-loved facilities are going to be sold off. This announcement will cause huge uncertainty for our army families and these closures will have a wider social and economic impact in both Pembrokeshire and Powys.

The defence Secretary said yesterday that his department will work with the devolved administrations to boost local economies in the light of this announcement, and I’d like to ask what provisions will be put in place to assist civilian and military employees who can’t be redeployed from these bases in rural areas, which already suffer with low employment prospects. I wonder if he could enlighten us as to whether he will be writing to the Minister responsible to ask how they intend to put forward this co-operation that they announced yesterday they were going to implement.

The defence Secretary also said yesterday that all the money generated from land sales from the sale of these sites will be invested back into meeting the needs of the armed forces. Whilst this, of course, is welcome news for the armed forces, has the Minister made any calculation as to how much money will be lost to rural Wales as a result of this announcement? The UK Government has also made much of releasing publicly owned land on which to build new homes. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline if it is the intention in Wales, also, to build homes on these sites?

I’m grateful for the questions from the Member. Of course, the area she talks about is steeped in the history of the armed forces and the support for local communities as well. Indeed, I’ve already met with Joyce Watson, yourself and Kirsty Williams, the local Member, this morning, to talk about these very issues that you raise. I will make that part of my letter to the Ministry regarding this. Decisions about defence estates are a reserved matter, but there are other consequences, indirect consequences, of leaving communities. I do believe that the armed forces have a strong connection and must maintain that for many years to come in terms of any turmoil that may have been caused by exiting such a community as yours.

Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure that I speak for many people in Pembrokeshire when I say that the soldiers of Cawdor barracks and their families are an important part of our local community and are a huge support to our local economy. So, I’m extremely disappointed and frustrated that the UK Government has taken this decision. I’m also saddened that the earlier decision to shut the 14th Signal Regiment is now on the Ministry of Defence’s agenda, given that last year we were told that the barracks would remain open. I’m very proud of the support that Pembrokeshire has offered our armed forces personnel and their families at Cawdor barracks over the years. Those families have been fully integrated into our local community, and it’s a shame that that great community cohesion will be lost when the barracks close in 2024.

Therefore, in light of the UK Government’s intention to close these barracks in Brawdy, will the Cabinet Secretary outline what discussions he will be having with his colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure regarding the effect of this decision on economic development and regeneration in Pembrokeshire in the future? Given that the proposed closure of the barracks will not take place until 2024, what discussions will the Cabinet Secretary—and indeed his Cabinet colleagues—be having with Pembrokeshire County Council and local stakeholders to plan ahead, and indeed to militate against any negative economic impacts as a result of this decision? Finally, Llywydd, further to Eluned Morgan’s questions, what additional help and support can the Welsh Government now give to civilian staff employed at the barracks through this transitional period to ensure that they have access to a full range of job and training opportunities?

I thank the Member for his questions. I share his frustration and concern about the actions of the UK Government to remove the armed forces’ bases from Wales. The armed forces are valued in Wales, and they bring a lot of economic and social benefits to communities right across our communities—the Member alludes to many of them.

I will start a dialogue with the UK Government Minister with regard to the armed forces in terms of actions that I believe that they should take. I don’t believe they should just walk away from commitments in communities. The armed forces have been with us for many years, and they are very welcome here. I would like to be assured that the exit is not just for the armed forces but actually the support for the local community as well. The residence in the civilian life is an important one. I’ve already started discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure with regard to joint working, with regard to economic regeneration. I know he is meeting with the leader in Pembrokeshire very shortly, and we’ll continue those discussions. But initially we have to start the dialogue with the UK Ministers in order to be fully appraised of the impact in timeline and exit plans that they have proposed.

Cabinet Secretary, this week, of all weeks, we do reflect, actually, upon the connection between the armed forces and the public, particularly in the areas where they live. These plans, by concentrating personnel in fewer centres, do risk eroding that special bond, and that’s one of my fears. As you know, I’ve grown up in west Wales and Cawdor barracks was always part of that community, and the same can be true in Brecon.

One of the things you might not know is that I started my life out as a child of somebody serving within the armed forces, in Tywyn first of all and then in Manorbier secondly. When those camps were closed, it actually denied opportunities of work and money to those communities that had existed for many, many years. You only have to go back to those communities, as I do, to see the negative impact that removing these services and jobs from those communities has had. Because the other thing that happens when you’ve got armed services residing within a constituency is that they also supply children to the local school and they help keep those schools open. They also provide, in some cases, staff to help keep your hospitals open. So, the impact is much bigger than might be originally perceived. As I say, having grown up within that community, I understand full well the impact that will be felt quite clearly, because an awful lot of the personnel there will actually volunteer within those communities and help to run other clubs and societies. Because the one thing that they can do is organise. So, the impact is going to be significant. I hope that, when you do have these conversations, it will be the impact in the round that will be talked about, not just all the other things that have been discussed—and I won’t repeat—already this afternoon.

I’m very grateful for the local Member’s words, describing the issues that will impact on Pembrokeshire and the local community. I also recognise that this isn’t just about the armed forces, in themselves. It is a whole community resilience issue. I strongly believe that all Governments, of whatever political persuasion, have a duty to support communities where the armed forces are based and were based. There is a legacy issue here that I will be discussing with the Minister, and the issues that the Members raise in the Chamber with me today will form part of that discussion.

I’m not overly sentimental about the location of the armed forces, and I recall that the Brecon barracks were used to put down the working-class rebellion in Merthyr Tydfil in 1831 as well, but I think it is important that we see many army bases located in communities in Wales. I think it is important that many of our young people who serve in the armed forces are able to maintain their contacts with their own communities and with their families. And I think that it is good for the soldiers and other army personnel’s welfare that they have that local connection with communities. So, it’s very disappointing that we are seeing a unilateral decision being taken to uproot long-standing facilities that have got the support of the local community and where people are able to integrate in that way.

I am very disappointed as well to hear that the Government wasn’t informed about this. I don’t suppose I expected to be informed as an Assembly Member what the MOD does, but I think it’s very unfortunate that we all hear from the press when these things are impacting directly on the communities that we represent. What discussion now can the Minister have with the MOD regarding the fact that Wales, actually, when you look at the list—whether it is recruitment, or whether it is procurement—overprovides into the MOD, we overprovide into the armed forces, and we get an under-provision in terms of investment in Wales, in terms of expenditure in Wales, in terms of just the physical location of our men and women in the armed forces in Wales? There simply is not the location for them. As the MOD has said that this does not mean the closure, completely, of these facilities—for example, the Brecon barracks are supposed to be moving somewhere else—what discussion is he now having, or able to have, with the Westminster Government about where that location may be? And, what is the maintenance, therefore, of the headquarters—the conceptual headquarters, anyway—of the army in Wales, as it were, which I think is what Brecon barracks, in effect, provide for many?

As a final question, there’s a particular community that has served the people of Brecon long, has served our armed forces long and hard, and is very much obvious in the community in Brecon and, indeed, in the Heads of the Valleys now, which is the Nepalese community, which has been so loyal to the armed forces of the United Kingdom over the years. What discussion is he able to have with that community now? In one sense, uprooting the people from Brecon uproots them from the context in which they are there and enables them—[Interruption.] Of course they’re not in the barracks. I know that. It uproots, however, the location of the support that they’ve had from fellow soldiers in the past, and it uproots the context in which they have come to mid Wales. They need to be assured that they continue to be welcome here and that we will put in place support services to allow them to make their lives in mid Wales going forward.

I thank the Member for his question. He is right to say that communities have been formed around many of these bases, and there are long-standing links between the armed forces and local communities. In many cases, they are very good relationships and they work in the communities—as Joyce Watson said, it is about volunteering and sharing skills and opportunities. We have a very good relationship with the armed forces—the army, the navy and the Royal Air Force—and other emergency services here in Wales. This announcement was made by the UK Government, and we are disappointed also that we weren’t given a heads up regarding this. There are indirect consequences of exit; I am not aware yet of the whole picture. We haven’t had time to establish what those concerns are, but of course people in communities like the Gurkhas, the Nepalese and people in Brecon and Radnorshire are part of the local community. Of course, we will look at what the impact is for that community and for broader communities in Brecon and also in Pembrokeshire. But I do go back to what I said earlier: I believe that the UK Government has a duty to support exit strategies for any communities that they are removing bases from here in Wales.

I share the disappointment and frustration that have been eloquently expressed by the Cabinet Secretary and other Members who have spoken this afternoon. But isn’t this decision one of many that fall to be made as a result of the decision by the UK Government, enthusiastically supported by all other parties in this Assembly, to cut the defence budget and reduce the army to a mere 82,000 serving men and women? And the consequence is bound to be decisions of this kind. Whilst the overseas aid budget is ring-fenced, the defence budget is cut to the bone, so I think all Members, in all other parties, should accept their part in the responsibility for the decision that has been taken.

This is a decision of the UK Government. I’m disappointed that the Member sees fit to attack the overseas aid budget—I think that’s a necessity also. But the impact of this decision will have to be fully considered. I will be in further conversation with the UK Government Ministers in regard to the impact that it has had in Wales.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.