The next item on the agenda is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children on the childcare offer for Wales, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make a statement, Carl Sargeant.

Diolch, Lywydd. The last few years have been very difficult for working families. Many have struggled to make ends meet and manage the consequences of the austerity imposed by the UK Government. One of the concerns working parents have raised with us time and time again is the cost of childcare and the impact that has on them, their finances and their quality of life. Since early summer, we’ve been talking to parents. In September, I launched our Talk Childcare campaign, and we’ve received feedback from over 1,500 parents so far. We’ve also held focus groups, and this engagement will continue through to the spring. From the engagement to date, it’s clear that parents want childcare: to be less of a strain on family income, so they can make their budgets work; available at times and in places that make it easier for them to work; and more accessible, closer to home and work, with support for their children’s needs.

This Government is committed to supporting working families across Wales, and, as a direct response to the issues and concerns families have raised with us, we will provide 30 hours of free early education and childcare to the working parents of three and four-year-olds across Wales for 48 weeks per year—the most generous childcare offer for working parents anywhere in the UK. This will reduce the strain on family income and help ensure childcare is not a barrier to parents getting a job or continuing to work. I want to provide Assembly Members today with further details of our plan for delivering the new childcare offer.

Our new childcare offer will include our successful foundation phase provision during term times, with supporting childcare. During the weeks of the year when the foundation phase is not provided, qualifying children will receive 30 hours of childcare, supporting working families with the costs of holiday care. Helping parents meet the cost of childcare is only part of the picture. We also need to address availability and accessibility, and in particular look at the support needed to help children with additional learning needs take up their entitlement under this offer. We will work with childcare providers to ensure as much flexibility as possible in delivering this offer. To ensure this is possible, we are looking at the capacity of the sector and how it’s going to deliver this.

We know that there are parts of Wales where there is already a shortage of childcare, and we’ll work with the sector to help it grow and to thrive. I’ve recently commissioned research in partnership with the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure and economy, looking in detail at the childcare sector, the support it needs, and the costs involved in providing quality care. We’re also looking at the outcome of the recent review of the sector by Qualifications Wales. Good childcare requires a strong, skilled and effective workforce, and we want to ensure we have a clear pathway and a training plan in place. To that end, we will be launching a 10-year plan for the workforce next year, which will set out the priorities for the sector in the short, medium and long term. Accessible childcare also means looking at childcare choices.

Our plan is to work with the sector to ensure that there is enough provision for parents who want access to Welsh-medium care, and to make it a more attractive option for those who have not previously considered this. This is important in the context of our commitment to 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050.

It also is important to ensure that there is sufficient provision for children requiring additional support to learn and develop, helping them to develop and thrive. But, in all this, we must not lose sight of the children themselves in the balance between education, care, play and time with their families. We will need to work through this with parents, providers and other stakeholders to get the balance right, but I’m also keen to get the work on the ground. So, I am pleased to be able to tell Members today that we will begin testing this offer with six local authorities from September of 2017.

Testing the offer will allow us to make sure we align the hours of childcare with the early years foundation phase in a way that works for parents and for children, have the right number of childcare places in the right parts of Wales, develop and expand the workforce, with improved training, support the sector to grow, providing the flexibility parents need, and learn what works and what doesn’t, building on experiences and evidence to deliver for all working parents here in Wales.

Joining us on this journey from September 2017 will be Anglesey and Gwynedd, Flintshire, Blaenau Gwent, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Swansea. This gives us a mix of geographical areas across Wales in which to test this offer.

I’d also like to thank those authorities who expressed their interest in working with us but are not included at this time. I want to expand the reach of early adopters in the future and will bring more of you and the interested parties along with us as we go. Delivering this commitment will be challenging, and I don’t underestimate what needs to be done. We need to put the right infrastructure in place, and doing that will take time.

Llywydd, we will work with parents and providers to ensure the system supports our children, as well as helping working parents. The barriers childcare presents to parents, stopping them supporting their families as they wish, must be addressed head on. It makes no sense for parents to be earning less than their childcare costs. It makes no sense to have to turn down a promotion, or a better job, losing opportunities to improve your family’s circumstances, just because you can’t access childcare when and where you need it. We want parents to have employment choices. Working with key partners, and listening to our citizens, will allow us to deliver real change.

Cabinet Secretary, thank you for your statement this afternoon. This is an area that, obviously, we looked at in committee last week, when you were suffering with a heavy cold, so it’s good to see you looking in better form today, Cabinet Secretary. I am grateful for the statement that you have given today. Obviously, childcare was an important consideration at the recent election. All the parties had different offers that were contained in the manifestos, and, obviously, your good selves as the governing party now are charged with implementing the particular offer that the Labour Party had before the electorate. I do note from your committee presentation last week, Minister, that you did say that you did feel that this was, most probably, one of the biggest challenges—if not the biggest challenge—that sits in your portfolio for delivery, and for very good reason, in fairness. The financial implications, as well as just the logistics of delivering this across the whole of Wales, will consume a considerable amount of your time and, indeed, a considerable amount of your resources as, in fairness, I think you’ve acknowledged.

I’d like to pose several questions to you in relation to the statement that you have made today, starting with, obviously, the financial considerations of delivering this policy area. There have been various observations made that, potentially, if it is universally taken up across Wales by the maximum amount of individuals—families, should I say—who could benefit from it, the actual financial consideration could be somewhere north of £200 million. I think in your evidence that you acknowledge that somewhere between £100 million and £125 million is a more realistic figure. I’d be grateful if you could give some certainty as to the budgeting proposals around this commitment. Because, whichever way you look at it, in the disposable income, shall we say, that is available to the Welsh Government, that is a considerable sum of money to find on an annualised basis. I would be interested—especially as you have linked in the foundation phase here, which obviously sits in the Cabinet Secretary for Education’s portfolio—in how the resources will be allocated to deliver this commitment. Is it specific to your budget, or will there be budget lines in both portfolios to deliver, and exactly how will those budget lines be accommodated, going forward?

I would also like your comments on the Public Policy Institute for Wales’s consideration as to the merits of the policy and the net benefits, given that the Government is keen to implement this policy—and understandably so, because, obviously, it was a manifesto commitment—and are going to put considerable resources behind it. The Public Policy Institute for Wales clearly identified what they believed were very small gains both in employment opportunities and other gains back for the money that you’d be investing. Do you recognise the observations that they have made, and how would you rebut the potential limit of the gains that they see in policy and delivery of this initiative?

I’d also like to know how the successful councils were chosen for the pilot areas—six, I believe this statement alludes to. Seven, sorry. No, six it is, sorry—six, the statement alludes to. How many authorities did actually tender or express an interest that have been unsuccessful? Because you do allude to the fact that there were other authorities that weren’t successful in being taken into the pilot. And how long do you envisage the pilot running for? You indicate that it will start in September next year. I’m assuming it is a 12-month pilot, or is it longer? Again, I think it’s important for us to understand how long the pilot will run. Because, again, in committee last week, you did indicate that this commitment will be fully implemented and delivered by the time of the next Assembly election, which, obviously, as we all know, is May 2021. So, that sort of timing will, I would suggest, pose a real challenge to the Minister to actually get the pilot done, undertaken and implemented.

I’d also like to know exactly what work the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Infrastructure and himself have done in assessing the current position for the capacity to deliver this, because your statement talks about the work that you have undertaken to date, and I’m assuming that, as a party, and as a Government, before making this commitment, you did undertake some preparatory work so that you could see what the capacity is. What is your understanding of the current capacity that is available to meet this commitment, and then how much extra capacity does the Government believe that it needs to build into the system to deliver this 48 weeks of 30 hours of childcare here in Wales for families with children that are 3 to 4 years old? So, with those questions, I look forward to hearing the answers, in particular around the resourcing and the capacity of the care sector to actually deliver on the commitment the Government has made.

I thank the Member for his questions on this particular issue. The Member will be aware from the statement that we intend to launch the pilot schemes in September of next year, partly because of the questions that he raised about capacity and opportunity within the sector. We are engaging currently, and have been for some time, working with both local authorities and childcare providers. I met with childcare providers last week and my team have been meeting with them on a regular basis.

While the proposal has very broad principles in what we’re seeking to deliver, the manifesto commitment was very clear. There are an awful lot of complexities around that, and the unknowns that the Member recognises—the amount of take-up, the amount of opportunities to have seamless transition between foundation phase and childcare—these are all complexities where my team are working with the sector and interested parties to deliver. That’s why the pilots are really important.

We have a £10 million programme kicking off in September with six authorities. The six authorities again were part of a bidding round. We invited all authorities to compete and show interest. Not all did respond. I don’t have the list with me; I will write to the Member providing details. We do have a mixture between urban and rural settings. There are some that only provide within the school setting, and some use private and public sector delivery.

On the rural setting, there is a joint bid from Anglesey and Gwynedd, which was welcomed. There was another joint bid from Pembrokeshire, Ceredigion and Carmarthen—it was one or the other, effectively. It’s just about making sure we have a learning process behind this as well. It works out that we’re about—with the applications that came back, and the consolidation of two of those bids making five authorities into two bids, effectively—with the authorities that we’ve brought forward, it’s about a quarter of the authorities that we’ve started the pilots in. It won’t be the whole of the authorities that it will be delivered in; it will be very specific areas that will be testing the system to see if it works.

With regard to the budget lines, the scheme is made up of foundation and childcare, so the foundation still sits with the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and that’s something that we’re very keen to ensure continues. But as we learn from the delivery, what’s really important in this is that it embeds the principles of the future generations Act—it’s about asking people. Rather than Governments issuing processes for people to try and work backwards into, we’re actually talking to parents to see what works for them and their children.

The PPI programme was based on assumptions of a 40-week programme. This is a 48-week programme that includes the holiday period. That was a big stopping point for people and the ability to enter back into the workplace, because the seven-week period during the summer is really difficult to manage. We think that this, along with the very popular—and I’m sure the Member has also found it extremely popular, the commitment from his party in his manifesto as well, talking to people on the doorstep—we believe this will bring many benefits, including the economic, social and educational benefits of the family unit. So, there are things in the PPI report that we recognise, but actually we think there are far more positives on the basis that it’s a longer, bigger programme than was originally assessed.

In terms of the overall principle of childcare provision, the local authorities have got a very good handle on what they have in terms of childcare locally. We’re trying to talk to the sector about delivery. Rural settings are more difficult. We’re trying to make sure we’ve got facilities there, but also the Welsh language as well, and how we embrace the Welsh language and bring that to the forefront. I’m confident, given the discussions I’ve had with the finance Minister, that by May 2021, we will have delivered this programme in full. While the Member is right to recognise the challenges that we face, I’m confident that we can do this.

May I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement and welcome it? You will know that Plaid Cymru was committed to offer full-time childcare for all, but I do accept that this is a positive step in that direction, and one that we clearly support. And it’s good to see the Government beginning this work on the ground, as it were.

One thing I would like to raise about the tone of the statement is that it does suggest that the approach and focus of the Welsh Government is an economic one, mainly. You mentioned in your statement the drain on family incomes and releasing parents to go back to work, and looking at the impact of the childcare sector in economic terms. These are all valid considerations, but I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to confirm that the core motivation for this policy is to ensure the best possible start in life for children and to ensure the influence and best early learning opportunities for them. Yes, there are other benefits, but surely that is what drives this policy and, perhaps, that hasn’t been given due attention in the statement as it currently stands.

There are two aspects that are centrally important to the success of this policy, in my view. First of all, quality—and I don’t think I actually get up and speak to the Cabinet Secretary without mentioning that—but also accessibility to the provision. One would expect that these pilot schemes would be a means to test the accessibility of the provision, as we’ve heard, in various contexts—the urban, the rural, the linguistic differences, and so on and so forth.

But, in terms of quality, that perhaps is a little more problematic, and I would acknowledge what the Cabinet Secretary said at committee last week, that there’s a great deal of thinking that still needs to be done in terms of what good provision looks like and what quality looks like in reality.

Clearly, the workforce plan will make an important contribution to that, but I would like to hear, Cabinet Secretary, whether you anticipate that these pilots can also provide us with some guidance when it comes to understanding what quality provision looks like and how we can create more of that and build on the strengths that are identified.

Any childcare policy should, of course, as the Cabinet Secretary has acknowledged in his statement, contribute and create firm foundations for the Government’s aims for a million Welsh speakers by 2050. It’s an opportunity to start children on that journey in becoming bilingual. I understand that some 86 per cent of those who attend ‘cylchoedd meithrin’ go on to Welsh-medium education, and the majority of the others don’t because there isn’t provision in their particular area. But, we have to be proactive now. We have to move from being reactive and responding to demand to being far more proactive and ensure that that growth does happen in a more dynamic manner.

So, we do need to generate that demand in a number of ways, and I would like to know—. They say that if everyone who had a right to take advantage of this when it’s fully implemented were to do so, then we’re talking about some 20,000 children. So, I would like to hear, not necessarily the numbers today, but when the will Government start to outline how many of those 20,000 children the Government wants to see going on to Welsh-medium provision and how many of those who they want to see going on to primary Welsh-medium education.

That’s important, because that will determine how much additional workforce is required to provide for those children, and if we don’t get answers to that—and I don’t expect answers today—but unless that is aired and discussed, how can we be confident that it is a co-ordinated part of the Government’s aim to move towards that 1 million Welsh speakers?

Finally, of course, in developing new provision, we have to recognise that there is concern about something that could undermine the current provision. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will be aware that HMRC are going to insist that all childcare providers and all playgroups, and so on, have to have their own pay as you earn reference number, and without that, parents who use those services won’t get the vouchers, which correspond to £2,000 on the cost of childcare per annum. Now, that has far-reaching implications, particularly for many of our smaller providers here in Wales. May I ask, therefore, what the Government is doing to assist these providers in light of that threat, although it’s a non-devolved issue? There are serious implications, I would have thought, to what we’re trying to achieve here. Because it would be regrettable as we try and create new provision on the one hand that the sector that is the foundation on which we will build that new provision is going to be undermined by something else.

I thank the Member for his generally positive comments that he brings to the Chamber today. The Member’s first question was whether there was a strong emphasis on economic opportunity within the statement. It’s unintended if there was, because we believe that there are cross-cutting themes about what the statement does and the delivery of this programme does. It certainly is a great advantage for the economic revival of communities; allowing parents to go to work is a good thing. But there is also the social, quality and educational outcomes, and the principles of the WFG Act, which we’ve embedded in this principle of how we take this complicated policy forward.

In terms of some of the actual details of the workforce, we’ve started two pieces of work in more detail; first of all, the workforce plan. The children’s commissioner and the future generations commissioner are helping us in terms of trying to look at this intelligently through planning for the future. And the other element following on from that, once we understand the workforce programme, is around a deep dive into childcare and early years, looking at what actually works better and how we are able to flex the programme to maximise the issues. So, it isn’t focusing just purely on the economics of this, but actually it’s the best outcome for the learner as well, and how we maximise the whole process. So, the pilots will enable us to have some flexibility as we move forward as well. So, what the pilots may start as may not be what they end as, and that’s the whole principle of why we’re learning through the introduction of this programme.

I have spoken with the sector, the workforce care council and the skills Minister. We’re already having a discussion about what’s needed for the future. The Member is right; he always brings up the issue of quality. It’s an aspiration of mine, and I share his view in terms of how can we professionalise the quality of the workforce to make sure that this is a long-term, career-progressing opportunity for the workforce as well. It’s really important for our young people, and it’s something that we are considering as we move forward.

The issue about HMRC is one I’m familiar with. This is just one small part of the problem that we’re looking at—about the declaration of the 16 hours of an individual being able to qualify for the offer. So, we’re working with HMRC, the providers and local authorities to see what the best route is—is it a Welsh solution, or is it a more general position of HMRC and some of the records that they keep.

I’m really pleased that this very complex, very expensive piece of work could actually have long-term huge benefits for communities across Wales, and that it’s something that I’ve been able to bring forward. And the Welsh language is part of that, too. I’ve met with Alun Davies in terms of how we deliver that particular issue within the sector. Developing the Welsh language provision in early years is an important role, and the childcare sufficiency assessments—for some parents, those gaps in the Welsh-medium and bilingual provision are a real concern. They are a concern to us, too. I don’t think it’s helpful to put a number on this, because I think it’s what parents and families want to access in the first place. If we’re saying that there are 20,000 units should parents want Welsh language provision, then maybe that should be the number we should be aspiring to, but what I’m very keen to ensure is that what we learn through these pilot schemes that we launched is about the accessibility in the first place: can we actually deliver what we’re saying we’re hoping to deliver long term, or are there some things that will place barriers in the way? I look forward to working with the Member to make sure that we can deliver this for his constituency, and many across Wales.

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his statement, and I’ve got four questions. Firstly, I recognise that, when he says that 30 hours of provision a week, 48 hours a year will be the most generous offer available in the UK, he is right. The delivery is still to come, but I would credit both him and his party, and the Welsh Government, with the ambition and what they’re trying to achieve in this area. He mentioned UK Government-imposed austerity; would he in turn recognise that the relative lack of generosity of the childcare provision to date has also been something that has held back and made things more difficult for at least some families in Wales?

Second, the quality of existing provision has generally been considered to be good, with two and a half hours a day, five days a week in a school environment. I just wonder, when he says in his statement,

‘Our new childcare offer will include our successful foundation phase provision during term times, with supporting childcare’, does that mean that any expansion of provision in school settings will be a different type of childcare added on to that two and a half hours? I had perhaps hoped that, in some areas, the two and a half hours of often good-quality provision in schools might perhaps be extended to six hours per day. Is that going to be happening in at least some of the pilot areas, or is it envisaged it would be a less educational emphasis and perhaps a cheaper childcare wraparound in addition to the existing provision?

Third, he speaks about capacity and shortage of capacity in some areas of Wales. What is the Welsh Government’s view as to where those areas of shortage are? Speaking from a personal capacity, I’ve been impressed by the range of choice and available capacity that there is. When he talks of the pilots, and six from autumn next year—is it his assessment of lack of capacity that is the limit on how quickly and widely he can roll out these trials or is that a constraint of finance within the budget that’s available to him?

Finally, and picking up, really, on the previous speaker, the issue of quality I think really is important here. Certainly, my impression, too, reading and listening to the statement, was of a was a very strong emphasis on the economics of the benefits of childcare and how much working parents will appreciate this offer, as indeed we will. But there was certainly less in his statement about the impact on the children of the expanded childcare provision, and one of the arguments some put forward for state-supported childcare is that the quality of provision, particularly for, perhaps, children from less well-off families, can be something that improves their life chances. I think, with the pilot projects he proposes, there’s a real opportunity to both focus on that but also test that. As well as looking at what do parents feel about the provision, how do councils cope with the logistics, what’s the interface with the Welsh Government, what’s working best from that logistical-type standpoint—could he also make some provision for some academic study of the pilot programme, so we actually see whether the availability of the pilot programmes in some councils, or in areas of some councils compared to others, feeds through down the road to improved outcomes and particularly, perhaps, early test scores for the children who have benefitted from those pilots? Thank you, I’m grateful.

I thank the Member for his positive comments. He’s right to raise the issue that this is the most generous programme being delivered in the UK by this Government. The UK are indeed having great difficulty introducing their general programme across England. I think it was York that had significant issues around the strike price for agreeing what childcare would be with the private sector, and the private sector actually refused to deliver some of the services in the end. So, there was a big issue there—we are learning from that experience. I think, you know, we’ve got to make sure that we understand what the complexities are with the sector that delivers this and with the parents. That’s why it’s easier for us to introduce a much slower programme into that system.

It fits quite nicely into the third point that the Member raised around capacity and the reasoning why we’re phasing this in the six authorities. One is partly due to capacity and understanding what we can deliver on the ground. The sector are saying to us, ‘Don’t rush this because we can’t deliver on this at this point’—the English experience has been a good one but he’s also right to raise the issue of the fiscal elements of this as well. The finance Minister has kindly introduced a £10 million programme for next year, which I’m very grateful for, but it’s also a controlling factor in our ability to move the programme forward. We think that will equate to around about 10 per cent of the programme, so it’s a good pilot learning opportunity for us within the boundaries of fiscal and capacity opportunities that are presented there.

The Member raised the issue around foundation phase split with childcare; that doesn’t change. We’re in discussion with the Minister with regard to some consistency across authorities, because some authorities deliver foundation phase on different timescales, on a different approach, and add hours. But there is also evidence to suggest—. It’s been presented both ways to me. Some people are saying, ‘Why don’t we just have a 30-hour foundation phase programme, as opposed to a 10 or 20-hour or a 15/15 split?’ There are many pieces of evidence that suggest that full-time education, foundation style, is not beneficial to the child. The issue of alternative play as well is an important one. But we will learn through that programme and what I can say is that some of the settings may not change for the child, so it may be partly foundation and then moving to a childcare setting, but it would be in the same building, perhaps, as some of the units. I know Rhondda Cynon Taf were familiar with introducing a scheme for two and three-year-olds, full time, in a previous administration, prior to this current administration, and it’s something that I’m really interested in to see how that works, what the opportunities are there, and, more importantly, in RCT, how they can deliver that through the summer period as well, when foundation isn’t there, and what the way that they’re going to be able to manage that is.

The Member is right—and it’s shared by my Cabinet colleagues and many Members in this Chamber—about what quality looks like and what is the opportunity for the young person. There are huge economic benefits for communities on just the ability for parents to get back into the work stream, and I think that also adds to the issue around tackling poverty when you’ve got pay coming into a healthy household—it embeds opportunity for the family. But what we will not be doing is warehousing children. I can give you that assurance. We are very keen to ensure that there is a provision of good foundation and good-quality childcare, which we expect to be delivered.

I’ve also been questioned about whether the provision of childcare should be delivered by our families—grandparents or family members—in terms of how they can access the system, because that’s what they do. There will be very clear guidelines on what the expectation is. The Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales inspection is part of that process in terms of delivering good childcare. There’s a large working group we have looking at this. These are external people and some of my team working on how we are able to deliver this. The outcome of the learning will be an important one for how we shape the full programme, moving forward.

The children’s commissioner and the future generations commissioner also sit on that and while they are the—I should be careful how I say this—commissioner police, they are our critical friends who are helping us shape the way that certainly children’s voices and parents’ voices are brought into this policy agenda. So, we are learning a lot from the opportunity of the pilot, too.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary, for the statement. Obviously, this is a very important area of our manifesto commitments. I’ve got over 20 schools in my constituency—primary schools, that is—all of which provide foundation phase early learning from the age of three. But all of them are providing part time. So, that is the reason why, Mark Reckless, you can’t simply be providing full time, because there’s one lot coming in in the morning and there’s another lot coming in in the afternoon. This is the capacity issue that we face in an urban area like Cardiff, because the city of Cardiff has been growing with about 36,000 people, and all our schools are completely full.

We have quite a lot of private and voluntary childcare providers as well, and that’s fine, but I want to probe how we can get more of the sort of arrangements that we have at Ysgol y Berllan Deg, which happens to have a private bilingual nursery at the bottom of the garden, which enables them to provide that wraparound care. Similarly, at Roath Park school, they have a private nursery—Ninian Nurseries—that takes children to and from the school to provide them with both the wraparound care and the education. How else does the Cabinet Secretary see us being able to move forward in a very built-up area like Cardiff, where land is, obviously, at a premium?

In a former life, I was very much involved in the creation of integrated early-years centres, which provided different levels of both education and childcare, charging people on a different scale, depending on their circumstances. That is, obviously, a model that we, perhaps, want to revisit, because just because we’re going to give free childcare to three and four-year-olds—it wouldn’t do any harm to expand the service of paid care to other parents who feel they would be able to do that and still be able to keep their job.

So, I think that, in relation to our capacity to expand, what change does he envisage us having with our voluntary and private sectors? Because, in Cardiff at the moment, the rule is that you can’t place your child in a nursery provision in the voluntary or private sectors unless there is no provision in the state sector. That, it seems to me, is probably not going to enable us to create more voluntary sector nurseries. Unless they know they’ve got a certain number of children, they’re simply not going to be able to operate. So, I wondered what discussions you’ve been having with, in particular, my local authority on that to perhaps change the way we look at the voluntary and the private sectors, given that we’re going to have to work together with them.

Otherwise, when we’re building new schools, what commitment can I get from you, Cabinet Secretary, that we will no longer build schools that don’t have sufficient capacity for wraparound care in the schools? Because that, clearly, is going to be the way forward. It’s far better for the child to be able to stay in the same room as where they started off with their nursery education and also have their childcare. I absolutely recognise that that isn’t possible at the moment from where we are starting in Cardiff. But if we’d truly had community-focused schools 10 or 20 years ago, we wouldn’t be where we are today, because it’s perfectly obvious that everybody in the community would want free childcare and available at their local school.

I thank the Member for her contribution—it poses some very interesting questions: what if, 20 years ago, we were able to change the way of our future? We’d be looking very different, perhaps, today. But she raised some important points during her contribution.

The issue around wraparound care is an important one that we are working with the private sector, the voluntary sector and the public sector about what does that mean through our Talk Childcare programme. We’re understanding that it’s not the nine-to-five, always, that helps parents. Actually, they want some flexibility around each side of that. That in itself poses a problem, because most of the heavily reliant, good delivery of public services models are generally working in that space, and where there is heavy reliance on that particular programme, there isn’t much capacity in the private sector, because there aren’t many children in that space. So, we’re trying to flex that, and I absolutely understand the questions that the Member raised about how that looks in terms of working outside the norm. That’s why we’re working with a variety of organisations and a variety of local authorities that will test this system for us in both a rural and an urban setting. Swansea, I think, is the urban setting of a city base that will use an opportunity to work with the voluntary sector as well.

The issue of capital is one I have already had discussions with the finance Minister and with the education Minister about. We are considering what levels of capital are required. The Cabinet Secretary has kindly introduced £20 million per annum from 2018-19 into the education main expenditure group for capital investment in childcare settings, alongside the twenty-first century schools programme. So, this is about planning for the future, exactly what the Member raised, about what we can do more about that—having a flexible setting that is built for delivery of this most ambitious childcare provision.

This is very ambitious, but we can deliver this. I’m confident we can, but we can’t deliver it as a Government on our own; we have to work with other sectors as well. I’m very encouraged by the amount of interest from outside, looking in. I must say that of the 1,500 responses, in one of the biggest responses we’ve had in our engagement programme talking to parents, most of the questions are saying, ‘When are you going to start delivering it?’ So, there is enthusiasm, both from our side in terms of wanting to deliver but also from parents wanting to receive—and children wanting to receive—this great investment from this Government.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Firstly, I must say how pleased I am to hear that Rhondda Cynon Taf will be one of the pilot authorities in this scheme. I’m sure it will bring enormous benefits to my area. I have three questions for you today. Firstly, Cabinet Secretary, I wonder what consideration you have given to flexible and alternative models of childcare delivery that fully take account of and complement the differing models of nursery education and childcare provision currently on offer in the different local authorities in Wales. In addition, while I very much welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s reference to the provision of childcare during the school holidays, I wonder what consideration he has given to the importance of really drilling down into the logistics of this school holiday provision, which is so important. Because the enhanced wraparound offer being put forward really has the opportunity to make a real difference in tackling, for example, the scandal of children going hungry in school holidays, but in order to do that we really need to make sure that we get the offer right.

Finally, I’d welcome a more detailed update from the Cabinet Secretary on the Talk Childcare strategy. I think this is a very good way to engage with parents and with providers, but I’d be keen to know how the Welsh Government is engaging with the hardest-to-reach groups who may perhaps need more urgent intervention.

I thank the Member for her positive contribution. The Member’s right with regard to, in many local authorities, there is a raft of services delivered in different ways across the 22 local authorities. This has given us the opportunity to look at what works best, where, and how, maybe, we can broaden that. I don’t envisage that we’ll have one scheme as we move forward to the end of the programme. I think there’ll have to be some flexibilities in how we’re able to deliver some of those. But the proof of concept will be taken forward over the next couple of months.

The issue of logistics, and particularly the one around the summer period, is one that we challenged RCT on, because we know that they can deliver this through the school period, but can they and how will they do that through the summer period, or the holiday period? That is a matter for them, and they are signed up and enthusiastic to go. I spoke with the leader today about the opportunities that this will pose. He’s very enthusiastic, and I’m sure you’ll increase the pressure of opportunity within the authority as well.

Talk Childcare has been very successful. We’ve got #TalkChildcare on Twitter and Facebook. We’re also using other methods of engagement, through Mumsnet and other programmes. My team have been out talking to private sector companies. So, they were in a large company in Caerphilly only a few weeks back, talking to parents in that company about how and what their needs may and may not be for the future. To be fair, my team are working incredibly hard with externals to deliver this programme, but they’re fed up of me saying, ‘Go and talk to real people’, as opposed to ‘Government’s doing this to people; let’s get some feedback about what works for them too.’

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.