The following amendments have been selected: amendments 1, 2 and 3 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth, and amendment 4 in the name of Jane Hutt.

The next item on the agenda is the Welsh Conservatives debate, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion.

Motion NDM6132 Paul Davies

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that, according to the Royal British Legion’s 2014 Household Survey, there are 385,000 members of the current, and former, service community in Wales.

2. Recognises that those who serve or who have served in the armed forces and their families, should be treated with fairness and respect.

3. Believes that Wales should be at the forefront of implementing the Armed Forces Covenant, which is intended to ‘redress the disadvantages that the armed forces community may face in comparison to other citizens, and to recognise sacrifices made’.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) note the Scottish Government’s creation of a veterans commissioner, to champion the needs of the armed forces community, and further calls on the Welsh Government to create an armed forces commissioner for Wales which would be dedicated both to veterans and the wider armed forces community, with the overall objective of improving outcomes for both veterans and serving forces; and

b) introduce a veterans needs assessment as the basis for delivering services to ensure that former members of the armed forces are entitled to receive the support they deserve.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Lywydd. In this Remembrance week we propose that the National Assembly for Wales recognises that those who serve or have served in the armed forces, and their families, should be treated with fairness and respect, and believes that Wales should be at the forefront of implementing the armed forces covenant, which is intended to redress the disadvantages that the armed forces community may face in comparison to other citizens, and to recognise sacrifices made.

An estimated 385,000 members of the current and ex-armed forces community live in Wales. According to the Royal British Legion’s 2014 household survey, this comprises 310,000 members of the current and former service community in Wales, with an additional 75,000 children. Ministry of Defence statistics have further suggested that there are 153,000 veterans amongst this population.

The first of July was the centenary of the start of the most bloody battle of the first world war—the battle of the Somme; 7 July was the centenary of the battle of Mametz Wood, when infantrymen of the 38th (Welsh) Division walked straight into the German machine guns in front of a wood, roughly a mile in length, near the small village of Mametz. It was an honour to sponsor last week’s Royal British Legion poppy ride here, when Assembly Members and staff joined veterans, legion members and staff to cycle the distance from the Assembly to Mametz Wood to mark the Remembrance period. Congratulations to a certain Member over there, who I believe was the fastest—or covered the greatest distance in five minutes. I went for a gentle ride in the country, but there we are. [Laughter.] On this day, 9 November 1916, 100 years ago, the battle of Ancre Heights began, as the final phase of the battle of the Somme was drawing to a close. By 1918, 280,000 Welsh servicemen had served in world war I, of whom approximately 40,000 died. On this day 22 years later, Germany started expelling 180,000 French people from conquered Alsace-Lorraine in year 2 of world war II. People have also made the supreme sacrifice in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Falklands, Northern Ireland and Korea, to name but a few. For the past informs the future, let us never forget.

We call on the Welsh Government to note the Scottish Government's creation of a Scottish Veterans Commissioner in 2014 to champion the needs of the armed forces community, and to create an armed forces commissioner for Wales, dedicated to improving outcomes for both veterans and serving forces, and their families. The establishment of an armed forces commissioner for Wales is essential to support the specific needs of veterans and represent these to Welsh Government, and to properly scrutinise service delivery for veterans carried out by Welsh Government, NHS Wales and local authorities. The commissioner would engage with the armed forces community, as well as all public services, and champion the many key third sector projects supporting veterans and their families, so that they may be supported and rolled out, hopefully nationally, by, or with the support of, the Welsh Government. This role has been supported and endorsed by the armed forces community and armed services heads. It’s not our idea. We’re simply championing it on behalf of that community and those well-placed experts.

We also call on the Welsh Government to introduce a veterans needs assessment as the basis for delivering services, to ensure that former members of the armed forces are entitled to receive the support they deserve. The armed forces covenant refers to the mutual obligations between the UK nations and our armed forces. Its principles were enshrined in law by the previous UK Government in 2011, ensuring that the armed forces community does not face undue disadvantage when accessing services such as housing and health. All 22 local authorities in Wales have in place an armed forces community covenant, requiring them to have elected member armed forces champions, but more is needed.

Leading the Welsh Conservative debate on veterans here in July, I provided the example of a constituent who, following his army discharge, was diagnosed with chronic and complex service-related post-traumatic stress disorder. He had attempted suicide in March after repeated attempts to secure appropriate NHS intervention had failed. Further to my intervention, his community mental health team promised him a care co-ordinator within four weeks. However, when I was asked to visit him again two months later, he had still heard nothing. Well, the update on that story is that only after my further intervention at the highest level in the health board, was he appointed a care co-ordinator. Despite the clear commitment of local authorities and the Welsh NHS to deliver as many tailored services as they can to the armed forces, Welsh Conservatives’ casework—and, no doubt, that of all other parties—provides evidence that this does not go far enough.

Improved Welsh Government data collection is vital in order to establish the health needs of veterans, identify the support needed by their families and carers, inform commissioning and service provision, and highlight the engagement needed with people in the armed forces, serving and/or at transition into civilian life. In fact, this is exactly what June’s ‘Call to Mind Wales’ report, commissioned by the Forces in Mind Trust, and based on interviews with veterans, their families and people working in the voluntary and independent sector, called for. This report also called for increased Veterans’ NHS Wales capacity, stating that much more needs to be done to support the mental health needs of veterans in Wales. June 2016. The need for improved data collection is further emphasised by the Royal British Legion’s Count Them In campaign, which calls for questions on the armed forces community to be included in the next UK census. As they say, it’s estimated that there are currently between 6.5 million and 6.7 million members of the armed forces community living in the UK, representing about a tenth of the population. Yet little is known about the exact numbers, location and needs of this significant group.

When I raised this with the Cabinet Secretary in July, he stated the Welsh Government was supportive of the principle, but he believed that it could put service personnel at risk. However, he also promised that an expert group would look at this issue, and I hope to hear more from him on that today. There could be up to 0.25 million, in fact, veterans in Wales, but, without this data, we cannot plan for the NHS capacity needed, commission the wider services required, or provide the support on which families and carers depend, and we cannot deliver on the promise made by the armed forces covenant, that those who serve or who have served in the armed forces, and their families, are treated fairly.

We will support Plaid Cymru’s amendments 2 and 3 and commend the work of organisations such as 65 Degrees North, which helps the rehabilitation of wounded or damaged ex-servicemen and servicewomen by offering the opportunity to participate in challenging adventure. The project has secured support from the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, Prince Harry’s Endeavour fund and UK Government’s armed forces covenant LIBOR funding, which has also provided funding for CAIS Wales Change Step veterans services, providing veterans across Wales with tailored peer support and specialist intervention, and for First Choice Housing Association to support Wales Homes for Veterans—Alabaré.

Having led the first debate here calling for adoption of the armed forces covenant in Wales, and having campaigned on issues ranging from service-related mental illness to the total disregard of the war disablement pension, I welcome some of the subsequent steps taken by the Welsh Government. However, much more is required and we will abstain on the Welsh Government’s amendment 4 accordingly. It refers to the development of a ‘housing pathway’ for ex-service personnel and their families. But, as I said yesterday, I’m reliably advised that this just details in one place everything someone is entitled or not entitled to already, and doesn’t actually offer anything new, and that the Welsh Government needs to ensure front-line staff training about it.

Instead of £585,000, Veterans’ NHS Wales have stated to the armed forces committee here—the cross-party group—that they need £1 million annually just to meet the basic mental health needs of the armed forces community in Wales. Although a letter sent to me in August by the Welsh Government states that

‘between 60 and 65% met criteria for post traumatic stress disorder with the mean time from referral to first appointment being 42 days’, this is outside the Welsh Government’s 28-day target for primary care referral to assessment, and real referral-to-treatment waiting times were up to 38 weeks last month across the three health boards for which statistics are held by Veterans’ NHS Wales. Although the Welsh Government letter says that it expects therapists to help one another across health board boundaries if there’s sickness or absence, I am told that the backlog this would create in the other health boards makes it impossible.

The Welsh Government letter says that some veterans could have their care met from local primary mental health support services, but I’m advised that most Veterans’ NHS Wales patients have complex biopsychosocial needs requiring Veterans’ NHS Wales treatment and support.

As the Royal British Legion’s response to the consultation on the Welsh Government’s new ‘Together for Mental Health’ document states, and I quote,

‘the delivery plan at present does not address the complete package of mental healthcare needs for the Armed Forces community, and will not provide the right level of leadership or performance measures to adequately address the future needs of Welsh veterans or their families’ and it also says

‘the document should echo the intentions within NHS England’s constitution’.

I commend this motion accordingly.

I have selected the four amendments to the motion and I call on Bethan Jenkins to move amendments 1, 2 and 3, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Amendment 1—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Delete point 4.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to examine ways in which the needs of veterans, and the communities they live in, can be championed and promoted, looking at best practice elsewhere.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes the work of organisations such as ‘65 degrees north’ that help the rehabilitation of veterans, and calls on the Welsh Government to work with the Ministry of Defence to ensure people about to leave the Armed forces are aware of such organisations.

Amendments 1, 2 and 3 moved.

Thank you very much. Of course, I’m pleased to be part of this debate today, and, of course, I could not disagree with the fact that we need to treat families and veterans with respect. Really, I would expect anybody who lives in a civilised society—although perhaps there are some people in America who don’t agree they live in a civilised society after last night—to treat people with respect and to ensure that everybody can have access to resources—what’s needed by them as people who live in our society.

I want to be critical to some extent, because the irony of debates such as these is that there is a lack of vision by the Westminster Government when people to leave the army to put resources in place at that time to support soldiers. There is still enough money available for schemes such as Trident, for large military schemes, but there aren’t as many schemes in place to provide resources to help soldiers who are out on the battlefield at the moment and also to provide them with resources when they return from places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. I think we really need to discuss this in the context of this debate, because it’s very easy for the Conservatives to ask for more money and more resources all the time, when there is a need for the Westminster Conservative Government to show clearly that they understand the social problems that go along with the situation of people leaving the army.

I’m hearing it all the time from families. They say, ‘I expected more from the army. I expected more from them. I’ve been part of that family for years and I’ve been operating under their leadership.’ That lack of concern by them isn’t something that they can take without emotion, because they’re so close to the situation. They’ve developed relationships that not one of us, perhaps, understands, in very difficult situations. They’ve seen people die. They’ve seen their friends suffer. So, in the context of this discussion, I think we need to remember the emotion and the people behind these discussions.

Even though there are problems on a Westminster level, there are situations that remain where a number of people who were in the army or in the armed forces are unemployed, they have mental health problems and there is a need for enough skills for them to be able to transform themselves and to return to life outside the army. They say, ‘I’m now a civvy. I have to become a civvy and live in civilised society again.’

Rwy’n croesawu cefnogaeth y Ceidwadwyr i’r gwelliant a gyflwynais mewn perthynas â 65 Degrees North. Rwy’n gwybod fy mod wedi anfon neges e-bost atoch i gyd yn gofyn i chi ddod ar daith i fyny’r Wyddfa neu fynyddoedd eraill Cymru—ac rwy’n gwybod bod rhai ohonoch wedi ymateb yn gadarnhaol iawn—i gefnogi, a cherdded ochr yn ochr â chyn-filwyr, gyda llawer ohonynt yn dod o fy rhanbarth, Castell-nedd Port Talbot yn arbennig. Rwy’n meddwl bod un yn dod etholaeth y Dirprwy Lywydd, a bellach yn byw yng Nghaer, Peter Bowker, gŵr a gollodd un o’i goesau yn rhyfel Affganistan, ac a lwyddodd i groesi cap iâ yr Ynys Las heb gymorth yn ddiweddar. Byddant yn awr yn dringo mynydd uchaf Antarctica ym mis Ionawr. Yr hyn y maent wedi’i ddweud wrthyf yw, gallwch, fe allwch roi’r holl wasanaethau cwnsela yn y byd iddynt, ond os gallant ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o fod yn egnïol eto—oherwydd, yn amlwg, mae llawer o’u gwaith yw ymwneud â bod yn egnïol—yna gallant deimlo nad ydynt wedi eu gadael ar ôl gan gymdeithas a bod ganddynt rywbeth i’w roi yn ôl. Felly, maent yn mynd i mewn i ysgolion yn ogystal ac yn dweud wrth bobl am realiti rhyfel. Wrth gwrs, pe baech yn cyfarfod Pete, gallech weld ei angerdd dros yr hyn y mae’n ei wneud. Mae’n mynd i mewn i ysgolion ac yn dweud, ‘Nid wyf yn gwneud hyn er mwyn ceisio tanseilio’r hyn y mae’r fyddin yn ei wneud, ond rwy’n ceisio dweud wrthych y gall hyn ddigwydd i chi ac y bydd yn rhaid i chi newid eich bywyd o ganlyniad i hynny. ‘ Dyna pam rwy’n angerddol o blaid yr hyn y maent yn ei wneud.

Mae’r un peth yn wir am Newid Cam. Fel y dywedais ddoe, roeddwn yn hapus i roi cyfran o fy nghodiad cyflog iddynt ym Mhort Talbot am eu bod yn gwneud gwaith anhygoel gyda’r lluoedd arfog mewn perthynas ag anhwylder straen wedi trawma, a gyda’r teuluoedd hefyd. Dywedodd un ddynes ei bod wedi dioddef cam-drin domestig gan ei phartner am ei fod wedi dychwelyd yn dioddef o anhwylder straen wedi trawma difrifol. Roedd hi wedi gorfod ceisio gweld pethau yn y ffordd honno, ond wrth gwrs, ni allent fyw gyda’i gilydd wedyn am ei fod yn creu cynifer o broblemau iddi hi a’i theulu. Felly, roeddwn yn falch iawn o allu cefnogi’r elusen honno.

Ar fater comisiynydd, fe ddywedaf yn fyr mai’r unig reswm pam rydym yn dweud nad ydym yn ei gefnogi yw fy mod yn credu bod angen edrych ymhellach ar syniadau eraill. Nid wyf o reidrwydd yn dweud ei fod yn syniad gwael, ond credaf fod yn rhaid i ni edrych yn rhyngwladol ar yr hyn sy’n gweithio, ac mae’n rhaid i ni edrych ar gysyniadau eraill y gallwn geisio eu cyflwyno yma yng Nghymru, syniadau eraill i helpu’r rhai yn y sector penodol hwn, a sicrhau nad ydynt yn cael eu hanghofio a’u bod yn gwybod eu bod yn rhan annatod o’n cymuned yma yng Nghymru.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children to formally move amendment 4 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Amendment 4—Jane Hutt

Add as new point at the end of the motion:

Welcomes the steps taken by Welsh Government in partnership with the armed forces community, including:

a) the invaluable work of the Armed Forces Expert Group;

b) the development of the Welcome to Wales booklet for serving armed forces personnel and their families on being deployed to Wales;

c) the improved support for armed forces and their families, including the development of a Housing Pathway for ex-service personnel and their families;

d) the Armed Forces Employability Pathway which enables young people to build skills and confidence, gain qualifications and secure employment;

e) the continued work to progress health and welfare provision for ex-service personnel including the annual funding of £585,000 given to Veterans NHS Wales, free swimming and the total disregard of the war disablement pension from April 2017.

Amendment 4 moved.

Formally.

Rhianon Passmore.

Diolch, Lywydd. Thank you. As we approach Remembrance Day and Remembrance Sunday, it is right that we acknowledge here in the home of Welsh democracy the extreme service that the men and women of our armed forces have given, so that we continue to enjoy the freedom that we so prize. I will be representing, like many, my people of Islwyn at remembrance events in Risca, Blackwood and Maesycwmmer in the days ahead. I particularly want to thank the Royal British Legion for all their hard work throughout the year, and I would also like to acknowledge the work of Caerphilly County Borough Council’s armed forced champion, Councillor Alan Higgs, Labour’s councillor for Aberbargoed. His dedication, commitment and the time he puts in to give voice to the armed forces community throughout the authority’s area is deeply appreciated.

This debate, though, is timely on top of recent events and we must all challenge ourselves constantly to learn from the past. Warfare must always be the last resort. The Welsh Government will continue, I know, to monitor progress in Scotland after the establishment of an armed forces and veterans commissioner there, so that we can learn from developments across the United Kingdom. Whilst responsibility for the armed forces is not devolved, the Welsh Labour Government has rightly taken a lead to ensure that our 385,000-strong armed forces community in Wales is supported—and that is 12 per cent of the population. Let there be no doubt that the men and women who have done their duty for our country in uniform command and deserve the greatest respect from every single man, woman and child in Wales.

The Welsh Government, local authorities and partner organisations have demonstrated their commitment to the armed forces, with the principles enshrined in the armed forces covenant across the principality. All 22 local authorities in Wales have signed the community covenant, showing their commitment to the armed forces community, and the Welsh Government continues to work with local authorities to ensure that those commitments are delivered. In Wales, the Welsh Government has put significant measures in place to develop and co-ordinate deliverable public services for our veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and has established the Veterans’ NHS Wales, sadly still the only service of its kind in the United Kingdom. Each local health board has appointed an experienced clinician as a veterans therapist with an interest in or experience of military mental health problems. The veterans therapist will accept referrals from healthcare staff, GPs, veterans charities and, most importantly, self-referrals from ex-service personnel. And this is a clear example of putting words into meaningful policy and actions.

Rightly today military veterans in Wales are afforded the right of priority treatment for any health condition that arises from this service. This has not always been the case. Indeed, the Welsh Government has recently refurbished its package of support for veterans and their families to ensure that they access and receive the support they rightly deserve. And this refreshed support package sets out the Welsh Labour Government’s ongoing commitment across ministerial portfolios to the armed forces community across Wales.

Will you take an intervention on that?

Sorry, I want to finish.

And it includes a new ‘Welcome to Wales’ booklet for those deployed here. And the Welsh Government continues to work closely with organisations such as the Royal British Legion to support our armed forces and veterans in every way possible.

This package of support, though not exclusive, includes £0.5 million for the all-Wales veterans’ health and well-being service, the homebuy shared-equity scheme, which has been extended to cover widows and widowers of personnel killed in action, and additionally, as has been mentioned, from next April, a full disregard of the war disablement pension, which will be introduced in local authority financial assessments of charging for social care. This will ensure armed forces veterans in receipt of these pensions will not be required to use them in order to pay for the cost of their care. And in February, the Welsh Labour Government and the Welsh Local Government Association joined forces to introduce free swimming for all armed forces personnel and veterans across Wales.

I would like to praise the work of the mentioned expert group—the only one of its kind in the United Kingdom. The expert group was established to advise on how public services can best meet the service community’s needs. And I know that this Chamber will be fully united today in giving our armed forces their full support. This week, we pay our full respects and we remember, but we must challenge ourselves to ensure that we are true to that remembrance every day of the year. One of our greatest playwrights, Alan Bennett, in ‘The History Boys’ challenged the audience when one of his characters stated:

‘A photograph on every mantelpiece. And all this mourning has veiled the truth. It's not so much lest we forget, as lest we remember.’

This Welsh Labour Government is determined to ensure that we will never forget the individuals who are willing to sacrifice everything to protect our nation, and we will fulfil our duty to them. Thank you—diolch.

As Mark said, this year is the one hundredth anniversary of the battle of Mametz Wood. For many Welsh soldiers, this was the first major offensive of the first world war. The capture of Mametz Wood was of key importance in the battle of the Somme. After five days of fighting, nearly 400 Welsh soldiers were killed, injured or posted as missing. As a result, 38th (Welsh) Division was out of action for almost a year. Between 2001 and 2015, the British armed forces lost 454 men and women in Afghanistan—a similar number was lost in just one morning in Mametz Wood.

It’s appropriate that we recognise the enormous debt we owe to those who have served and are presently serving in our armed forces. We owe it to them to provide the care and support they so richly deserve. Leaving the military, often after a long period of service, presents former service personnel with many challenges. It often means having to relocate, move home, find new employment, and undergo a change of lifestyle.

They face many challenges. One of these is mental health. Between 4 per cent and 5 per cent of ex-servicemen and women in Wales suffer from mental health issues. Post-traumatic stress disorder, as Mark earlier said, is an anxiety disorder caused by experiencing stressful or distressing events. It can happen at any time in their age. Someone with PTSD will often relive the traumatic event through nightmares and flashbacks. They may experience feelings of isolation, irritability, and guilt—in some cases leading to an increase in alcohol and drug misuse. The symptoms of mental illness need to be recognised early and greater support is required from the NHS in Wales for service personnel, veterans and their families.

The education of children of service personnel can also suffer due to a disrupted lifestyle in the armed forces. In Wales, there is no separate pupil premium for children of service personnel, as they have in England. The pupil deprivation grant is only available to children eligible for free school meals, which most service children are not. The Welsh Government should introduce a service pupil premium to support armed forces children in Wales.

Safe and secure housing for veterans is essential also. We need an armed forces housing pathway, which will outline what current and former servicemen and women are entitled to under devolved housing policies. We need tailored support to assist veterans to adjust back to civilian life and find employment here.

A survey carried out in 2014-15 revealed that only 34 per cent of veterans described themselves as being employed, either full time or part time. That’s not acceptable, Presiding Officer. I would like to see the establishment of a network of one-stop shops for veterans, as they have in Scotland, to ensure they are fully aware of the advice and support available to them after their service in the armed forces.

We need a veterans commissioner for Wales—the other side of the Chamber said they probably won’t support it, but the fact is they need, not an army general to control the retired armed forces, but a commissioner with their own needs and requirements in the society in Wales to co-ordinate and provide the support they need and deserve. This has been done in Scotland and I believe Wales should follow the same way and they should follow the same suit.

Wales has a long and proud relationship with the armed forces. Grant funding for the council of Wales, a voluntary youth organisation, expires on 31 March next year. This was a valuable source for cadet and defence-related youth organisations in Wales, and is now no longer available.

Member of the Senedd:

Will the Member give way?

No time. Perhaps the Cabinet Secretary could address this matter in his reply. Presiding Officer, we have a duty to recognise the long history of courage, sacrifice and service of our servicemen and women, past and present, and I hope the National Assembly will acknowledge the debt of gratitude today, and support this motion. Thank you.

I’d like to thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today, particularly as we prepare to remember the sacrifice made by so many of our brave armed forces personnel. Welsh citizens have a long tradition of serving our nation’s armed forces, and played a key role in many of the battles in both world wars. Wales represents just 5 per cent of the UK’s population, yet makes up 7 per cent of the UK’s ex-service community. We currently have around 8,000 Welsh men and women serving in our armed forces—men and women prepared to give their lives in order to protect the everyday freedoms we all sometimes take for granted. If it wasn’t for the dedication of these men and women, and those like them who went before, we would not be having this debate today. Welsh men and women died in their tens of thousands in order to keep our nation free from tyranny. We owe them so much: more than we can ever repay. The very least we can do is look after our service personnel, both serving and retired. While we have got much better at supporting our armed forces personnel and veterans, we still have a long way to go regarding post-traumatic stress disorder, housing, and all other things that go with coming back from a war that we are suffering from.

The armed forces covenant has helped address some of the shortfalls, and UKIP shares the Welsh Conservatives’ belief that Wales should be at the forefront of implementing the covenant, and that Wales needs an armed forces commissioner. The Welsh Government have improved the support given to our armed forces, but there is still much more we can do, particularly when it comes to housing and welfare for ex-service personnel and their families. Eight per cent of the ex-service community reported to the British Legion that they were experiencing housing difficulties. We must ensure that the service personnel are guaranteed housing, particularly when you consider that veterans are less likely to be employed than the general population.

We must also ensure that schemes like the Veterans’ NHS Wales service are strengthened and widely promoted. Unfortunately, the website is hugely out of date and still refers to the Welsh Assembly Government. An armed forces and veterans commissioner will not only be able to drive improvements to services for armed forces personnel and veterans, but also champion our service personnel. Other nations treat their service personnel with the reverence and respect they deserve. We do need to do much better. It is no good paying lip service on Remembrance Day once a year; we should be thanking those who serve, and those who have served, on a daily basis, and, even then, we can’t even come close to acknowledging the debt we owe those brave men and women. Diolch yn fawr.

Point 2 of the motion draws attention to the families of veterans, and supporting veterans doesn’t stop with direct intervention. Keeping a family together around serving members of the armed forces, as well as, sometimes, particularly vulnerable veterans, can be the most effective support of all. The service of an individual affects their relationships with partners, children, parents and even grandparents. And, in this context, I also include friends, because, for young men in particular, their mates, or good friends, can often be the main emotional support when there are things that you don’t feel you can share with your family.

The work of a commissioner for veterans would extend beyond veterans themselves to that wider armed forces community. And, if you’re in any doubt what that looks like, just have a look at who’s going to be involved in this weekend’s commemorations. You will see that families are at the forefront.

There’s already a wide range of services for armed forces families in Wales, from the grass-roots clubs for military families right through to things like Veterans Legal Link, which is a group that gives free legal advice to families and carers as well as veterans throughout Wales. Actually, I think Elfyn Llwyd is involved with that. The public sector, including both Governments, I would say, and the very active third sector, should be congratulated on the work that they do for veterans, but it’s particularly pleasing that this is an area where co-production is given space to show its worth. Actually, Members who’ve already spoken have given very powerful examples of the kind of support that veterans and their families get from within their own ranks—if I can use that—rather than having a service applied to them. Now, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t gaps, of course, but I think co-production is one of the places where we can look to actually start to fill those gaps. I’m thinking, in particular, of—I think it was last year—when I explained to the Chamber that I’d had some difficulty trying to identify the veterans champions lodged within our local authorities. Some are much better than others, but, if the councils can’t get it right, then let society help solve the problem.

Now, while I would like to think that a commissioner wouldn’t interfere with the good work of all these players, he or she would be able to help drive improvement, as Caroline Jones said, in the experience of serving military personnel, as well as veterans and their families, because they would have an overview, and prompt action to fill the gaps that, actually, Bethan Jenkins herself was talking about. I think another key role that commissioners would have here would be to consider the implications and support and advice needed for our veterans of the future. A commissioner would not only be able to respond to the needs of today, to advocate, but to scan the horizon for new challenges and potential solutions to those, because nobody seems to have assumed leadership for that particular job at the moment. Definitely, we need someone to help us scrutinise decisions made now, such as why there is a disparity between England and Wales, where veterans’ children are automatically entitled to pupil premium support, but they’re not entitled to the pupil deprivation grant here in Wales. That’s a point that Mohammad Asghar made. But we also want to be avoiding those sorts of post facto responses to problems such as with PTSD. We want to be avoiding problems arising in the first place. That’s why I think a commissioner would also be useful in asking questions like why the £415,000 requested by Veterans’ NHS Wales is not forthcoming when it’s so obvious that that would avoid the cost of millions in crisis services that—I can’t remember quite who it was now—I think it might have been Mohammad Asghar was alluding to when you consider the kinds of problems that veterans present with, usually after they’ve left their services.

What happens now and what the future looks like are both considerations that affect any young person who’s looking at a military career. And, again, this is where the veterans commissioner could play a crucial role in helping set the tone for how those matters are thought about now, not in the future once our young people have themselves become veterans.

Last week I visited Bridgend Military Preparation College in my region of South Wales West and met both instructors and young people between the ages of 14 and 19 that they work with. They educate a significant number of young people for whom mainstream education is perhaps a poor fit, as well as high achievers, and, from these, many do go on to pursue a career in our forces. I think we owe it to those young people to make sure that they are at the front of our minds, and at the front of the Welsh Government’s mind, now, as they progress throughout their careers, and not just when they return from areas of conflict or when they are discharged from service or retire. Not all the people that I met there were from military families, but some of them are likely to become members of military families in due course, and that brings me back to the role of military families and the help that they may need too.

So, when Welsh Government says ‘no’ to a veterans commissioner, it’s not just saying ‘no’ to helping and honouring the work and sacrifices that our veterans and the forces have made throughout their lives; they’re also letting down the wives, the husbands, the partners and all the families of veterans, and it’s letting down the children of serving forces and future forces, as those young people who are just starting on their careers, and hopefully will never experience—[Interruption.] Sorry, Lee, I didn’t see you. Apologies.

Will you give way?

No, I’ve finished.

You’re out of time.

Sorry.

One of the objectives we should set ourselves is to ensure that the path into work of those leaving the armed services should be supported so that they can continue to fulfil their potential in the civilian workforce. Across the UK, veterans are less likely to be in work than the general population, and nearly twice as likely to be unemployed. Now, there are reasons why working-age veterans face particular challenges. Often, those who join the armed forces at a young age do so as an alternative career path to further or higher education or civilian employment. Some will choose that because they don’t feel they have, perhaps, an aptitude for conventional learning, and up to 50 per cent of army recruits have literacy and numeracy skills that are below the standard expected of school leavers at 16. Those in older age groups leaving the services often feel less confident, for example, in their computer skills, but—and this is a very important caveat—a career in the services can also enable an individual to develop very real and useful skills that can be a useful asset to a civilian employer.

As Business in the Community acknowledge,

‘with over 200 trades in the Army alone, armed forces personnel receive advance training in a number of technical roles, including engineering, project management, communications, logistics and IT’— and a wider range than that—

‘all transferable to the civilian workplace.’

But the issue is often that those skills don’t result in a formal qualification that an employer outside the services can recognise as an indicator of a particular skill set and a given level of proficiency. So, one issue is how we translate those skills, which are real, into language that an employer would understand. As one veteran said:

‘There’s certain things you don’t have a qualification for. For instance being in charge of between 200 and 600 men…. I’ve been in charge of pay documentation, passports, deployments, bombs, bullets, you name it…. It didn’t mean a thing because I don’t have qualifications’.

So, I want to pay tribute to the many voluntary programmes that support ex-serving personnel with getting into work on discharge: Getting You Back to Work by the Poppy Factory, the ex-forces employment programme, a British Legion online mentoring programme, and also LifeWorks, which is here at the Assembly next week, which is a five-day course, with coaching, interview preparation, and cv workshops provided by the British Legion.

I’m also aware the Welsh Government works very closely with voluntary bodies supporting ex-service personnel, and many have benefited from the Armed Forces Employability Pathways, and also from Jobs Growth Wales. But I would ask the Government, as it rolls out its programme for apprenticeships, and the new Skills Gateway in this Assembly, to consider how they can also be used to help service personnel fulfil their potential in the civilian workforce, and I know that there’s good work happening within the apprenticeship pathway.

It is a matter of pride, as other Members have said, that local authorities—all local authorities—and health boards in Wales have armed forces champions, and I would encourage businesses also to sign the armed forces covenant, which supports veterans into work by guaranteeing interviews to veterans, recognising military skills at interview and actively seeking to raise awareness of job opportunities amongst those leaving the services.

It is important in this week of remembrance that we acknowledge the dedication of our serving personnel and ex-serving personnel, and I believe it’s our duty also to recognise the particular challenges many face in entering the world of work and to ensure they get the support they need in order to do so, so that they’re able to carry into the world of civilian employment the commitment they’ve shown in the services, and so that the talents they bring are not lost to our economy.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute in this debate, which has become almost an annual debate, just before Armistice Day, tabled by the Welsh Conservatives, and you cannot disagree with the sentiments that have been echoed across the Chamber from nearly all—well, all—the political parties here. But I do think we do need to reflect on the positive experience that people—many people—have in the armed services. It’s quite right to focus on the assistance that’s required for people with health issues and being returned back to work, but the all-party group on the armed services, which attended a recent meeting in Sennybridge, to which David Rowlands came—Lee Waters from Llanelli came as well—really saw the army, and the work that the army provides in training, the enthusiasm of soldiers of all levels, right from the hierarchy right down to the squaddies, and the pride and passion that they have for the role that they undertake. Many had many years’ service in the army, but I’m sure this will resonate in the navy and the RAF as well, and it is a wonderful experience for many young men and women in whatever they choose to do.

As has been touched on by the Member for Neath, the experience via careers and developing the character of the individuals who sign up is life-changing for many of the individuals who experience that, in a very positive way. Many people, when they return back to civilian life, wish to keep their privacy and very often wish to get on with their lives and use the experiences that they’ve gained in the military and put that to good use in civilian life.

One thing that I always remember, when we did an inquiry in the health committee, was that, when we were looking at sharing health information—the reason I use the word ‘privacy’ is because the army made the point, and the Ministry of Defence made the point, that many servicemen and women when they leave the army don’t particularly want to disclose that information or pass it on. They see it as their information. We do have to respect individuals’ rights and individuals’ rights to privacy, whilst making sure that we put measures in place that do help those men and women who do suffer the horrendous consequences of PTSD and life-changing injuries that might happen, and also supporting the families that have had bereavement through loved ones being lost in theatre and have paid the ultimate price and the ultimate sacrifice.

It is the families that we should be reflecting on because, very often, they are the ones who go on for years and decades aching for the love that they felt for that individual who laid down their life in that theatre of war, that conflict, that the Government of the day has chosen to deploy our armed services in, whether that be in special forces or whether that be the RAF, navy or the army.

I do want to reflect on how we can develop those services, because the motion today does call for us to reflect on the experience of what the Scottish Government brought forward in 2014 in bringing forward a veterans commissioner. This isn’t along the lines of the commissioners that we understand—the children’s commissioner, the older persons’ commissioner, the future generations commissioner—with an all-singing, all-dancing office with a lot of personnel and a considerable budget. This is someone who is a champion of veterans’ rights and veterans provisions within society, whether working with Government or working with private business. It does not cost a lot of money. It is a role that has proven to be very successful in providing advice and help to Government Ministers in Scotland to provide that support, whether it be in job creation schemes, in training or in promoting positive images of veterans and the armed services.

The way I’m reading the motion on the order paper today, with the amendment that is before us from the Government—I am detecting that the Government are going to support that, unless the Cabinet Secretary indicates, because the Government amendment clearly does not seek to delete it. So, I would ask the Plaid Cymru spokesperson to reflect, because her amendment does seek to delete that very important part of this motion about the creation of a veterans commissioner here in Wales.

I take the point, Bethan, about how we would need to learn from best practice and look internationally about how we might be able to increase or decrease the scope and capacity of such a commissioner, but I think I’m correct that what you were saying was that you don’t actually object to the role of the commissioner—what we need to put in place to assist was your reasoning for deleting that particular part of the motion. If that part of your amendments was withdrawn, then we would have a motion that would have the requirement for the Government to consider creating that veterans commissioner here in Wales.

I do think that that is a really important credit that the Assembly could get at the end of this debate this afternoon. So, I would implore you to give consideration to your first amendment that is seeking to delete that specific point in the motion today, because we can actually move forward on this very important agenda item if you were to withdraw that amendment from voting later on this afternoon. I urge support for the motion before us today.

First of all, I’d like to thank you for raising this as a debate today. We don’t leave soldiers behind on the battlefield, and we shouldn’t leave them behind when they come home. A ‘leave no soldier behind’ Act was something that I campaigned on during the election.

Many soldiers serve, they go through trauma, some are injured, and some unfortunately don’t come back. Those that do, what do they come back to? A lack of health care, a lack of mental health provision, especially, and a lack of housing—a real problem in finding housing. I think it’s outrageous that some former soldiers end up on the street. There are some soldiers who even come home and lose contact with their children because they’re classified as being potentially violent, which is a scandal.

We do have a covenant for the armed forces, but I don’t think it’s good enough. I think we need legislation to prioritise those who have seen active service. We hope to do this in Cardiff after May 2017 if we take over the council, because we think these people should be prioritised.

Identifying veterans should be the norm in the NHS and I’m told that it’s not, far too often. Healthcare professionals should have the training and we should be looking at best practice. For those of you who have listened to me here, I rarely congratulate the Government on anything, but when soldiers tell me that it’s much better in Wales than it is in England, then I think that is something to celebrate.

A tremendous amount of goodwill exists in this area, but as well as the parades and the anthems, concrete action is needed so that no soldiers are left behind.

I’ve had the honour of laying the wreath on behalf of Cardiff Plaid at remembrance Sunday for many years. For this year, I would ask that party politics be kept out of it. I think that would be beneficial to all.

Before I finish, I’d like to mention also the great service performed by the merchant navy, especially many people who live in this city who have done great things for our forefathers and foremothers, especially during the second world war. People from all around the world—from Somalia, from the Yemen, and many, many countries—they didn’t fight, but they were heroes also. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Members will recall that, in yesterday’s oral statement, I set out the Welsh Government’s commitment to honouring those who gave their lives in past conflicts so that we can enjoy the freedom we must have today. We must not forget them. I also set out the Welsh Government’s continued support for our ex-service personnel and serving members and their families. Working collaboratively with our key partners, we’ll continue to build on the success.

I listened carefully to the contributions made by many Members and this is a very highly emotive and a very respectful debate that we have had today. I recall when I was Minister a few years back when I had responsibility for communities. One of the most difficult visits I’d done was to an RAF base in Wales where I met families of serving personnel—not the active service personnel but the families and the young people. It was predominantly the female partners of the serving personnel and I think every single one of the members—the partners and wives of serving personnel—that I met was on antidepressant tablets. They were on very high levels of support. We’re very good at supporting the armed forces personnel, but we seem to forget the families and the units around them. I’ve had conversations with the armed forces since then—the army, navy and air force—about how can we protect our core of family units in these areas. It is because—as Bethan Jenkins related to earlier on—the fact that it’s not just the serving personnel that take the brunt of warfare, actually it’s the family as well. There’s lots of things that happen in occurrences—post-traumatic stress being one of them. The very interesting point that Bethan raised—that there is a very high incidence rate of domestic violence from post-traumatic stress—we must be there to support families and young people, but most importantly we must be there to support the sickness of the perpetrators as well. I’m very keen to make sure that we can continue to do that.

I welcome point 1 of the motion, which notes the number of serving and ex-serving members of the service community living in Wales. Wales is the better for their presence here and we remain fully committed to providing ongoing support for our armed forces community. The fairness and respect mentioned in point two of the motion are the very least we owe them.

In taking forward our devolved commitments, the Welsh Government will continue to support the armed forces covenant, the package of support that reflects Welsh Government’s commitments to ensure that members of the armed forces and their families are not disadvantaged because of their force’s life here in Wales.

Working together with our partners, we’ve refreshed our package of support, reflecting both Welsh Government priorities and policies and initiatives from charities and organisations that represent the armed forces community. The refreshed document also acts as a signpost to the support available.

With regard to the proposals for an armed forces veterans commissioner, we currently have no plans to propose one, and we undertook some exploratory work last year. The opposition Member, in good spirit I assume, highlighted the issue of what is happening in Scotland, but Scotland don’t have a 12-commissioner-style unit in an advisory group like I have advising me, from the Royal British Legion to SSAFA to all other organisations that are involved in our community supporting the armed forces. They come and meet with me and are telling me the very issue that is of concern. I’m more than happy to take an intervention from the Member, yes.

Would you confirm, Cabinet Secretary, given the amendment that the Government has put there, that you would vote for the amended motion if the Government amendment carries, and therefore you would be supporting that part of the motion? Because you have not sought to delete it, I’m therefore reading into that that you are prepared to agree for that proposal to go forward.

Well, let me just fill the detail out in terms of the process here. The Member is right to suggest that we will be supporting their amended motion subject to that, but, when we asked the armed forces—. This isn’t my decision, as Mark Isherwood alluded to when he said it wasn’t his decision; it was somebody else asking for this. Let me just explain about why we’ve got the evidence to suggest that the commission is probably not the right place to do that now. We had the armed forces expert group, and we meet them on several occasions through the year. It was agreed that the expert group should meet with officials and the Royal British Legion, and they would visit the Scottish Veterans Commissioner and other stakeholders to discuss his role and assess any lessons learned, and come back to the expert group and giving me advice on that. The findings were shared with all of the expert group, and it was agreed that it was early days to gain any real benefit from the work the Scottish Veterans Commissioner was undertaking, and the group would continue to have a watching brief over this to secure best practice across the country and beyond. I’m happy for that to continue, and if it merges into a space where recommendations come forward to suggest we should have a commissioner, I’m open to that proposal, but, at this moment in time, there is nothing other than evidence to suggest Scotland has one and that it makes for a better situation than we have here in Wales. So, I would resist the principle, but that’s why we’ve accepted in principle the motion, because we’re not ruling it out completely. That’s exactly what I think Bethan Jenkins was saying—we’re not convinced by the argument to have one at this moment in time.

Our work with veterans is based on continual contact and dialogue with veterans and charities and organisations that provide services for the armed forces community, and I do not believe that a new needs assessment procedure would improve services again in practice. You alluded to things that happen in Scotland or in England. We have some practices that happen here in Wales that don’t happen anywhere else in the UK. Indeed, the issue of the NHS support that we have in each of the health boards—that’s not available in any other part of the country, but is very specific to Wales.

The expert group, with its diverse membership, plays an invaluable role. Together, we determine our future priorities and how we can collaborate to deliver these for the future. I mentioned yesterday our new document called the ‘Welcome to Wales’ programme, tailored specifically for serving personnel and families, it provides information on where to access services and support. We know, as Members suggested today in the Chamber, that housing is one of the biggest challenges we face for veterans and their families. In consultation with our key partners, we have developed a housing referral pathway, helping veterans and their families to make an informed choice on the option that suits their needs.

Another programme that we are very proud of in Wales is providing £50,000 to the Headquarters 160th Infantry brigade and Headquarters Wales, delivering the armed forces employability pathway and again taking steps to help young people turn their lives around using the army plus situation, where we can gain benefits from their knowledge and support a confidence-building process. The Veterans NHS Wales programme, again, is the only one of its kind in the UK. We should celebrate the things that we are doing well here in Wales and not be negative in our contributions all of the time. We’re providing £585,000 a year to maintain that, but I recognise that is under pressure and we have to do more. Ideally, I believe that the armed forces should have a stake in this. As Members contributed today, when you leave the armed forces it shouldn’t be a case of just waving goodbye; there should be a pathway of support from the armed forces, from the Ministry of Defence in the UK for serving and non-serving personnel.

Can I pick up very briefly on some of the points that were raised by Members? Mark Isherwood asked me about the Royal British Legion’s Count Them In campaign. For very serious reasons, we resisted support for that in July this year, on the basis of security advice, because of the issues that Andrew R.T. Davies raised about the fact that some people just don’t want the information of being ex-service personnel in the public domain. We are content with that advice that we’ve received back from the security services, to protect the individuals who don’t want that position and we are supporting the British legion’s campaign and I’ve written to them to explain that process. So, I’m hopeful that the Member will be supportive of that.

Again, it is a regular occurrence—12 months to the day—to have the debate tabled again by the opposition. Again, we generally have two debates in the same week around this. I think it’s an important one; a landmark annual event that places on record our support, as Members, and that of this institution, to represent and respect the people who fought in many wars and conflicts to protect the society that we have today, and I’m very grateful for the opportunity to respond.

I call on Nick Ramsay to respond to the debate.

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and can I concur with the comments made by the Cabinet Secretary at the end of his contribution there—that this has become an annual debate? I think that all Members agree that it is one that, every year, Members wish to take part in to show our support for our armed forces and our veterans.

Can I thank everyone who has contributed to today’s debate? It’s so important that the sacrifices made for the nation by our armed forces are not forgotten. Of course, events such as Remembrance Day provide us with a vital focus for honouring the fallen, but our servicemen and women should be in our thoughts throughout the whole year and we should always be re-evaluating how we can best support them, listening to the ideas of servicemen and women themselves.

In fact, this was a point made by Mark Isherwood in his opening comments. For some of those Members who’ve said that, or suggested, we may in some way be trying to politicise the remembrance process and Remembrance Day this year, I think the very fact that many of these ideas have come from veterans themselves—not from us or indeed from other parties in this Chamber, but from veterans themselves—shows the spirit in which we have brought this debate to the Chamber and the intentions that we have in doing so to try and improve the lives of those in our armed forces.

The armed forces covenant principles enshrined in law in 2011 aim to ensure that there is not an undue disadvantage when accessing public services for our service people. Welsh Government and local authorities should tailor their programmes to best support these principles. This is why we have called for an armed forces commissioner—clearly, probably, one of the most controversial aspects of what we have proposed today.

Plaid Cymru are keen to point out when Wales is being treated differently to Scotland—adversely to Scotland—and indeed that is their prerogative to do so, but here’s a classic example: if a commissioner is good enough for Scotland, then surely it is good enough for us here in Wales. I hear, as well, what the Cabinet Secretary said—in fact, you were leaving the door open there, I think, Cabinet Secretary. It would be wrong of me to suggest that you have shut the door on having a commissioner to deal with these issues. I think what you were saying was that you were happy with the structure that you have at the moment and the advice that you have at the moment and if that then grows into a commissioner structure, or if there’s a demand for that in the future, then you would look at that seriously. What we would say to you is that demand is there now—we believe that that demand has grown and that there is now sufficient reason to bring in this role. It’s being called for by the families of service people; it’s being called for by the service people themselves and it’s being called for by Members in this Chamber. So, I would urge you to reconsider the position at the earliest opportunity—that you are supporting that aspect of the motion that does move us towards a commissioner. So, I would suggest that if it’s good enough in the future, it is good enough now and we should move to that position as quickly as possible.

Armed forces provision has been disjointed sometimes in the past. Let’s bring together different strands of support. Let’s build far better signposting, so that the age-old issues that have affected soldiers fighting for their country and the way they’ve found it difficult to readjust to civilian life are finally dealt with.

Jeremy Miles, in his contribution, was totally right to identify the higher unemployment levels affecting veterans. You spoke of the need to develop the skills that they’ve built up during their time in the forces to make sure that those are well used, that they do regain their confidence and that they are shown that they do have a very valuable role to play in civilian life.

Finally, Presiding Officer, Suzy Davies and Caroline Jones both made very valid comments. Suzy Davies said this isn’t just about veterans; this is about the broader issue of keeping families together. That important statistic quoted by Caroline Jones—yes, 5 per cent of the population in Wales, but 7 per cent of the veterans—really is important and we should bear that in mind today. In conclusion, Presiding Officer, can I thank everyone who took part in today’s debate? Let’s do what we can to provide greater support for our service veterans. I hope this debate will send out a clear message to our servicemen and women that they are in our thoughts, particularly during this week of remembrance, but also throughout the whole year, and that all of us in this Chamber want to do what we can to try and improve their lives as much as we possibly can.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.