<p>Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders</p>

1. 1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:37 pm on 6 December 2016.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:37, 6 December 2016

(Translated)

We now move to questions from party leaders. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Lywydd. First Minister, Labour has led the Welsh Government for 17 years. Do you take responsibility for today’s Programme for International Student Assessment results?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Well, the PISA results have seen some improvements in some areas but disappointment in others. And, from our perspective, we want to see the journey continue, because, if you believe the PISA tests are important—and I do believe they are important—then you have to recognise that the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development itself has said that we are doing the right things, and we are on the right journey. So, it’s a matter of making sure we continue with what we have been doing. Now, those are not my words—those are the words of the OECD. Nobody can be complacent and nobody can accept the situation as it is. We’ve seen some improvements but not enough. It’s a matter now of staying the course, as the OECD has advised us to do.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 1:38, 6 December 2016

Well, that sounds pretty complacent to me, First Minister. And I think it says quite a lot that you won’t take responsibility for the results that we’ve seen today. Now, the Labour Government has predicted improvement. We’ve heard it all before. Last year, your education Minister said a huge amount has happened since the disappointing 2012 test results. He also said,

‘I would anticipate, and I would hope for palpable improvement’.

So, Labour has promised improvement, and you’ve yet to deliver. First Minister, you yourself admitted that you’d taken your eye off the ball when it comes to education. And the result is that, today, Welsh scores for reading are worse than a decade ago, Welsh scores for maths are worse than a decade ago, and Welsh scores for science are worse than a decade ago. Pupils, parents, teachers deserve the improvement that you said would happen. First Minister, when will we see improvement? And, if you can answer that question, can you also tell us, how can we believe you?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:39, 6 December 2016

Look at the GCSE results and you will see that those results have improved greatly since 2010, an improvement of nearly 10 per cent in terms of those getting the right grades at GCSE. They are encouraging. We’ve seen improvement in maths performance, but disappointment with reading and with science. So, we are seeing the gap closing. We’re confident that that gap will continue to close in the future, because we see the results such as GCSEs and A-Levels, which are providing us with the evidence that the education system is moving in the right direction. But, as I say, the leader of the opposition doesn’t have to believe what I say, but if she accepts, as I said, that the PISA tests are important—and she does, of course—then she must accept what the OECD, who set those tests, is saying to us that we are moving in the right direction and we should stay on course. What they’re absolutely clear about is that we should not suddenly have wild reform or widespread reform now, but rather that the direction is correct. If she has other alternatives that she wants to put forward, that’s a matter for her, but we listen to the OECD. We see that there is great room for improvement, we accept that, but we do listen to what the OECD says in terms of them saying to us that we are on the right track.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 1:40, 6 December 2016

First Minister, you are the Government. You are the ones who have promised improvement. The reason that I ask you about those improvements is that you’ve got a record of moving the goalposts on this. You are the ones who have chosen to fully participate in PISA and to use it as a credible benchmark. In October 2014, the target of reaching the top 20 in the world by 2016 was dropped. Labour brought in a new target at that point, to reach the average of 500 points for reading, maths and science by 2021. Can you tell us now: are you still committed to that, or are you going to move the goalposts again?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:41, 6 December 2016

I am confident that, when the next PISA results come, we will see more improvement. The reason why I say that is because I mention the GCSE and A-level results. We’re seeing the first of that improvement in maths. We’re seeing the gap closing in areas such as reading and in science. But it’s not good enough—not good enough. There’s still work to be done.

We do know that, in other countries where improvements were effected, those improvements do take years. Improvements cannot be turned round within three years. Yes, of course we take responsibility. We were the Government who actually went into PISA in the first place. We must accept that PISA is a way in which the education system of Wales will be measured. There is more work to be done. The education Secretary will be outlining that in more detail when she makes her statement. We are seeing improvements in some areas, but, no, things are not as they should be, and we’ll never be content. We’ll always want to see improvement in the Welsh education system, and that’s exactly what we wish to see and we will do.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:42, 6 December 2016

(Translated)

The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, if I can take forward the points on PISA again, it was notable in your responses to the leader of Plaid Cymru that not one backbencher behind you had the wit to listen to you. All of them were looking at their computers, and rightly so. The Labour Party needs to be embarrassed by today’s results, after 17 years of leading education here in Wales. That is a damning indictment—a damning indictment—of your failures, First Minister, and the Labour Party’s ability to lead education here in Wales.

When you took office as First Minister nearly seven years ago—I think the anniversary is this Saturday—you rightly pointed out that education was a cornerstone of your policy positioning as First Minister, and you rightly point to the proud heritage that you have of being the son of two teachers. Now, you also pointed out that education was the key to unlocking success for the Welsh economy. Why on earth hasn’t that key turned to the benefit of pupils in Wales when you look at the PISA results today?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:43, 6 December 2016

Well, I’ve already given detailed answers to the leader of Plaid Cymru and accepted that there is no room for complacency and there is much room for improvement. But I have to say, when I went to school in the 1980s, the schools were awful. The buildings were awful. We had no library—it was falling apart. The buildings—if the windows were broken, they remained broken. The standard of teaching was good, and we were lucky to have good teachers. But that is the reality of it for those of us who went to a comprehensive and those of us who remember it as it was under the Tories.

Now, let’s examine his party’s education policy, if indeed—[Interruption.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Okay, let’s quieten down and let the First Minister continue.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Let’s examine his party’s education policy, if indeed there is one. Hands up anybody who knows what the Tory education policy is, beyond cutting funding for schools. They stood on the basis of cutting education funding by 20 per cent. They’re still saying that schools funding should be cut. Now, we accept that there is work to do when it comes to improving education. What we will never accept is that schools should have less money, which is exactly what he advocates.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:44, 6 December 2016

For goodness’ sake, First Minister, show some humility—for goodness’ sake. Referring back to the 1980s, referring to policies—you’re in Government. You’re the First Minister. The Labour Party have been in Government since 1999. You’ve written off a generation. Are you prepared to write off another generation? It’s your own education Secretaries who have come to this Chamber time and time again—. Huw Lewis, back in 2013, said,

‘I expect to see the impact of our reforms reflected in the next set of results’.

These are the set of results that we’re looking at today. What has happened in reading? What has happened in science? And we’re still behind the figures in maths from 2006. So, why can we not unreasonably expect you to show some leadership? You have a new mandate. I congratulate you on that mandate. But what we can’t put up with is more of the same so we write off another generation. Give us some vision, First Minister. You’ve got the keys, unlock the door.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:45, 6 December 2016

The clanging of an empty vessel, I have to say. But he asks the question about vision. Let me say to him, let me repeat to him what I said to the leader of Plaid Cymru, and it’s this: the OECD have said the last thing we should be doing is having a wholesale change in education policy. That’s exactly what they’ve said. They have said we are on the right track. What he is advocating is to throw everything up into the air and have complete disruption, which might be justified if the OECD said to us that we’re on the wrong track—he might well be right—but that’s not what they say. What the OECD have said is, ‘You are moving in the right direction, stick at it.’ And that’s exactly what we mean to do. We are seeing those improvements. We’ve seen it in maths, we are seeing it in GCSEs and A-levels, and we will continue to see it in the years to come.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 1:46, 6 December 2016

Well, with respect, you just need to look at what’s gone on in Scotland with the results today when you’re looking at some of the changes that have gone on in other parts of the United Kingdom. But I’m holding you to account about the vision that you obviously do not have for education in the future. I’ve quoted Huw Lewis, who was the previous Cabinet Secretary. Someone we do miss from this Chamber is dear old Leighton Andrews from the Rhondda—and I congratulate the Member for the Rhondda he lost his seat to—but, ultimately, at least he had a go. And he said to us in 2010 that honesty, leadership and a new approach to accountability was what was required. He wanted, by this stage in the cycle—not two years ago, but in 2010—for the Welsh Government to have got Wales into the top 20. Now, that was dropped, as we heard earlier from questioning, and you wanted to hit the 500 mark. Now, you said that you were confident that you were going to hit the 500 mark next time around, but we haven’t heard anything to give us confidence that we won’t be in the same place in three years’ time from you today.

Why on earth can you not give us some hard and fast commitments here today about where we will be in three years’ time when PISA does its next set of tests, so that at least we can mark the scorecard then, First Minister, and actually not have the same old excuses coming out from Cabinet Secretaries and the First Minister standing here blaming everyone else and not taking a long hard look in the mirror and wondering why it’s all gone wrong?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:47, 6 December 2016

As I say to the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, he cannot say on the one hand that the PISA tests are robust—and I agree with him on that—but on the other hand say that the OECD advice that we’ve had should be ignored, which is what he’s saying. [Interruption.] He is saying exactly that. The OECD have said that we are on the right track and we should continue on the track that we’re on. He cannot ignore that and pretend that hasn’t been said, because it has.

I’ve listened carefully to him and his party over the years in terms of their policies. I know nothing about what their education policy is, beyond cutting schools’ funding and having a dalliance with grammar schools, which is exactly what the OECD have said shouldn’t happen. So, yes, it is uncomfortable reading. I don’t deny it. It is a sign that we can never be complacent. I agree it is a sign that there is still work to be done. Although there are some signs of improvement, it’s not good enough. There’s still more to do. What we will not do, however, is panic and throw everything up in the air when we know that the advice that we have had says that we should stay on the track that we are on. That is what the OECD have said.

Now, if he’s prepared to disagree with the OECD and chuck their advice in the bin, when they’re the very people who set these tests up, then that is a matter for him. But it’s not something that we will do as a Government. We will continue to see improvements in GCSEs, improvements in A-levels and a move towards better figures for PISA next time around.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:49, 6 December 2016

(Translated)

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Lywydd. Since last Tuesday, I’ve had the advantage of reading the Government’s printed case in the Supreme Court case, which is being heard today. And apart from what it says at the beginning that the result of the referendum to leave the EU should be respected, it completely ignores the fact that the British people, by majority, gave the Government a mandate to trigger article 50. That mandate from the British people includes 26 of the 29 seats that Labour won in the election in May for this Assembly. Although the fine words at the start of this case say that the referendum result should be respected, the rest of the Government’s case is an obstacle in the way of respecting that result.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Well, I am not the Supreme Court justice and he, thank the Lord, is not a lawyer. So, we’ll have to wait and see whether his submissions are correct or whether those of the Welsh Government are correct.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 1:50, 6 December 2016

Well, the First Minister is misinformed, because I am a member of the Bar, as is he. But that’s not the first time that the First Minister has displayed his ignorance in this Chamber. [Interruption.] But in the last 10 years, the Parliament at Westminster—[Interruption.] The Parliament at Westminster—

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Allow the Member to be heard, please. I’d like to hear the question.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

In the last 10 years, the Parliament at Westminster has passed two very important Acts to restrict the Government’s powers in respect of the prerogative in relation to European Union legislation—the 2008 European Union (Amendment) Act, and the 2011 European Union Act, which provides, in certain circumstances, that the Government should not take any decisions without a resolution or an Act of the House of Commons, or an Act of Parliament, or a referendum. In none of those Acts does it refer to article 50. Therefore, the prerogative powers of the Crown were not intended to be restricted by Parliament in this respect, and the Welsh Government’s attempt to frustrate the expressed wish of the British people in a referendum where 17.5 million voted to leave the EU, is absolutely disgraceful.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:51, 6 December 2016

Before the First Minister answers, could I tell all Cabinet Secretaries, especially the one I’m looking at, that the First Minister does not need any support from the Cabinet bench—or I don’t think he needs any support. First Minister.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Well, unless the Member is registered as a practising barrister, he’s not a lawyer. I’m not, and nor is he. I haven’t been in court since 2000—January 2000. But there we are. But he’s making a case that he should make to the Supreme Court, not to me—and we shall wait and see what the Supreme Court does. But I did notice that his former party leader—he of the misspelling of a constituency yesterday, of course, famously, on the tv—threatened to lead a march of 100,00 people to the Supreme Court yesterday. That didn’t happen, and rightly so, because it’s only right that judges should be able to make up their own minds without ridiculous pressure being applied on them by the media and by politicians.

This is the most important constitutional case, as the Counsel General has put it to me, since Charles I, although hopefully without the same outcome for anybody involved. There are important issues here—not just of prerogative, but in terms of what this means for the Welsh and Scottish legislatures, and for Northern Ireland, particularly with the border issues there. And these are issues that must be resolved as a matter of law. This is not something that’s going to stop the referendum result from happening—that clearly will happen, but it has to be done, surely, in a lawful way.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 1:52, 6 December 2016

Yes, I entirely agree. But the Welsh Government has intervened in this Supreme Court case in order to attempt to frustrate the wishes of the British people as freely expressed in a referendum. Otherwise, there would be no point in intervening in the case in the first place. The First Minister has said many times that Labour will respect the result of the referendum, and therefore Labour MPs will not, or ought not to be whipped to vote against triggering article 50. Well, if Labour MPs are not to vote against article 50, what on earth is the point of the case in the first place?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:53, 6 December 2016

Well, I’m not actually the leader of the opposition at Westminster. The principle is this—we have taken the view that there are issues regarding article 50 that would affect the powers of this place. And as a result, it’s hugely important, therefore, that the situation of the people of Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland is examined so that we know, constitutionally, what the process should be. We would not accept a situation where the prerogative would be used to reduce the powers of this Assembly, and that’s why it’s important that the Supreme Court actually examines these issue to make sure that what is done is done, but is done legally, surely. Brexit was not a vote about ignoring courts or the law. We were told it was about empowering the UK Parliament, except when it’s inconvenient. Now, let the Supreme Court do its work, let it examine these issues in detail, and then we will have the answer that is needed before the process then moves on, as inevitably it will.

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