The next item is the legislative consent motion on the Criminal Finances Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government to move the motion. Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6183 Mark Drakeford

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the Criminal Finances Bill, relating to the creation of a new tax evasion offence, in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Formally, Llywydd.

I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Simon Thomas.

Thank you, Llywydd. Quite simply, I just want to note that the Finance Committee approved this method of dealing with this issue. It’s clear, with taxation powers coming to the Assembly for the first time, that we in the Finance Committee would be eager for us to legislate here on all possible occasions, if that is practical. But in this context, which relates to tax evasion across the UK—but, of course, will include the evasion of Welsh taxes when they are put in place—then we do see that there is merit in legislating jointly with Westminster, although Westminster doesn’t always agree that we should be insisting on having our own voice in these issues. The fact is that this Assembly, in the new year, will be asked by the committee to consider the first devolved tax, related to land transactions. That will include a general avoidance rule, which will include a means of dealing with taxes across England and Wales. Therefore, it is appropriate that we express our views on this, but the Finance Committee is also of the view that the Government’s approach in this context is acceptable, and therefore we recommend that the legislative consent motion should be agreed.

I also support an LCM for this measure. I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his phone call yesterday explaining some of the background of this, although, of course, I'm also aware of our work on the Finance Committee. If the UK Government doesn't consider it to be necessary to have an LCM, I note its failure to prevent the facilitation of UK tax evasion offences, which is clause 37 of the Criminal Finances Bill from Westminster. And I just wonder whether their way of reading it is that that refers to evasion of a UK tax and an interpretation of that which may not include devolved taxes, or are we talking of evasion of tax in the UK, which would, on a natural reading, include such a devolved tax? The Cabinet Secretary and the Welsh Government have taken a view on tax Bills we are passing to have different avoidance legislation than has been the case in the UK. I welcome that we’ll have the same anti-evasion rules, and I also think the Cabinet Secretary did give persuasive arguments around the differentiation on the avoidance rules. It's a reasonably clear and simple LCM process that we have, and, if the Cabinet Secretary views an LCM as necessary, I'm happy to support that approach.

I concur with the thoughts of Mark Reckless and also the Chair of the Finance Committee. The Welsh Conservatives will also be supporting the LCM that has been laid before us today.

I've heard that there are some concerns, if I can put it that strongly, from the UK Government. However, having looked at this myself, I not only don't think that those concerns are justified in this instance, but I also think that, as this Assembly moves forward into the tax-making, tax-formulating, tax-legislation-passing agenda, we need to make absolutely sure that we are futureproofing the legislation that we pass, particularly in an uncharted area like taxation. So, I feel that this LCM is necessary to ensure that all bases are covered, not just today, but also in the future. Once the Welsh revenue authority is up and running and we do have future taxes coming forward, I think this is a necessary step forward and we’re happy to support the LCM today.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary to respond to the debate.

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. Could I start by thanking the committee and to Simon Thomas for the work that they’ve done to scrutinise this LCM and just to say thank you to all the other Members who have contributed to this debate?

We agree with what Simon Thomas said. The Government’s position is clear.

Ein barn glir ni yw bod gan y Cynulliad hwn fuddiant yn y drosedd ddomestig a grëwyd gan Fil Cyllid Troseddol y DU, gan y bydd hyn yn amlygu achosion o dreth sydd wedi’i hefadu yn dreth ddatganoledig i Gymru. Dyna pam yr ydym wedi ystyried ei bod yn gywir dwyn y cynnig cydsyniad deddfwriaethol gerbron y Cynulliad hwn er mwyn iddo wneud penderfyniad. Ac mae Nick Ramsay yn hollol gywir i ddweud, wrth i ni symud yn fwy i'r maes hwn, y bydd gwaith i’w wneud o ran dysgu ac addysgu rhannau eraill o'r system er mwyn iddyn nhw ddeall y ffordd yr ydym yn gweithio yma. Fodd bynnag, wedi dweud hynny, rydym ni’n cefnogi’r cynnig i lunio trosedd unigol a fydd yn berthnasol i’r holl drethi ledled y DU. Rydym o’r farn y bydd yn ein galluogi ni i ddefnyddio dull cyson a chydlynol o fynd i'r afael â’r math hwn o droseddu, ni waeth pa dreth sydd wedi ei hefadu neu ba awdurdod sy'n gyfrifol am ei chasglu. Ac rwy'n ddiolchgar am yr awgrym gan bleidiau eraill eu bod yn barod i gefnogi’r safbwynt hwnnw y prynhawn yma.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.