Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 6:11 pm on 10 January 2017.
A light afternoon for us, Cabinet Secretary, isn’t it? I’m pleased to contribute to this debate. I think we have on numerous occasions in debates and statements over the last year or two highlighted that stamp duty land tax will be the first tax devolved to Wales in several hundred years, a point made by the Chair of the Finance Committee. Indeed, as the Chair said, it is the first time that we’ve needed to do other things such as get the Land Registry to fully and completely map the England-Wales border—issues that we’ve never had to address before. So, I think it’s been a more complicated process than any of us realised it would be at the outset. I see Mike Hedges nodding vigorously in agreement. I know the Cabinet Secretary and his predecessor would agree with that.
Welsh Conservatives will be supporting the general principles of this Bill. I would say we do, of course, have no choice. That sounds a bit harsh, but, of course, we all know that the reality is that, on that fateful day or night—I’m not sure what time it happens—in April 2018, the UK stamp duty tax is turned off in Wales, and there is of course then a need to replace it, because that is what we would all seek to do, and we do need, it’s true, to have a replacement that is ready to go and is fit for purpose.
Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his responses to some of the Finance Committee’s recommendations, which, again, I received this morning? The Chair’s alluded to some of them. I mention in particular your response to recommendation 8, in relation to determining consideration of cross-border transactions, which has been spoken about in depth in the Chamber this afternoon. I’m sure that Mike Hedges will be raising this—yes—in further depth, so I won’t go into much depth on this other than to say that it may well only affect a minority of transactions, and in fact we weren’t entirely sure about the number that are affected, but those will be in border constituencies like mine, and this issue does need to be addressed. I know a lot of work has been done by the Cabinet Secretary and his officials to ensure that that happens. We know that Wales has a long, porous border and is more susceptible to border issues than Scotland, for instance. I think it’s around 50 per cent of the population live within 30 miles of it—I don’t remember the exact statistics, but it’s very close to the border. So, it needs to be sorted out.
As regards recommendation 10, I am mildly disappointed that the Welsh Government has on the face of it rejected the recommendation to consult before the setting of rates and bands. I think this might be semantics, in a large degree. I fully agree, actually, Cabinet Secretary, that the setting of rates and bands is ultimately a matter for the Government, and that’s the case with the Scottish Government and the UK Government and other executives. But I do think there is no harm in seeking as wide a range of views as possible prior to the setting of those bands. We do aim to be—aim to be—as transparent as possible here, and just because England and Scotland don’t do something doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t look at doing it, and maybe look at doing it differently. That said, you have committed to engaging with stakeholders as extensively as possible, so I hope that, as I said, this is semantics and that this process will be as robust as possible and that stakeholders will be happy with the end result.
I think we do have to accept that there is concern among some stakeholders, and understandably so. This is a new tax; it’s breaking fresh ground for all of us. It’s the first time the Assembly has done this and many issues need to be ironed out before the tax goes live. I’m sure that the experience that we learn from this process will help in the development of landfill tax and future taxes. So, it’s understandably a difficult process. I think we all went into this knowing that that would be the case.
So, I welcome your approach, Cabinet Secretary, and indeed the previous Minister’s approach, that the system here should not deviate too much from that across the border unless there’s a compelling case for it to do so. I know that that has been the view of the Government for a long time. It seems an eminently sensible maxim to me; it reduces the potential for confusion during the transition period and minimises the potential for a distortion of the housing market in Wales relative to England. That has been one of the concerns: that any setting of rates that are disparate with those in England will cause confusion and disruption. We heard that in the stakeholder event that we held over in the Norwegian church in Cardiff Bay last year. It’s particularly a problem for practitioners operating from England. If all the practitioners were actually operating locally here, then there might be a greater awareness of what’s happening, but clearly awareness needs to be raised across the border as well as here, and perhaps you can say a little bit about how you intend to do that.
Just finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, the second aspect of this Bill is, of course, tax avoidance and enforcement. The committee has looked in some detail at the general avoidance rule, the targeted avoidance rule—the Chair of the Finance Committee went into this—and needless to say, it is vitally important that we get this right. This is the start of a process. What was that old expression? ‘Devolution is a process not an event.’ Well, I think this is also a process, not an event and we all want to work together to make sure that we do develop the best possible tax regime in Wales over the months and years to come, and indeed a regime that is not open to avoidance, that is not just equitable, but I would like to see a system here that is better than that across the border in England. That must be our ultimate aim and goal.