5. When did the First Minister last meet with the Prime Minister to discuss Wales' relationship with the European Union? OAQ(5)0372(FM)[W]

Well, I met with her in October and I spoke to her this morning prior to the speech she made this morning. She didn’t tell me much about what she was going to say, apart from saying that the United Kingdom would be looking outwards to the rest of the countries of the world and, of course, would maintain a good relationship with the countries of Europe.

Whilst I’m pleased to hear that the First Minister has spoken to the UK Prime Minister this morning, I’m not surprised that he didn’t get much light on these matters. But having understood what she said in that speech, does she understand that it wouldn’t be appropriate for her, as the UK Prime Minister, to try to negotiate along with the rest of the European Union on issues devolved to this place?

Well, I noted that she said that there would be no change with regard to devolved powers and that laws would be made in the Parliaments of the United Kingdom. She also said that she wanted to strengthen the union between the nations of the United Kingdom. I don’t know exactly what that means. If that means that we will have a system where there is a mechanism of securing agreement between Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland about some of the common issues between us, then I would welcome that. If that is some kind of a message to say that some things would be determined by the United Kingdom Government, on behalf of all of the other home nations, then, no, I would not welcome that.

First Minister, no doubt you were as appalled as I was last week when Tory MPs in Westminster talked for four hours to talk out the private Member’s Bill from Melanie Onn MP, which would have safeguarded every aspect of employment legislation currently protected under EU law once we leave the European Union. And I note that in stark contrast to the actions of her MPs last week, the Prime Minister in her statement this morning gave certain assurances on workers’ rights. But does the First Minister agree with me that this demonstrates that there is a clear split in the Tory party on this critical issue of workers’ rights, meaning it’s going to be more difficult than ever to ensure that workers are protected in a post-Brexit Britain, and does he further agree with the TUC that we will need to know exactly what the framework for workers’ rights and jobs will be?

Well, I did note what she said. I welcomed what she said. In fact, she said that not only would rights be protected but extended in the future, which I didn’t expect but is something I welcome. This was undermined, of course, by the leader of the Welsh Conservatives this afternoon who shot a very large bullet through that argument. I hope this is a sign she’s prepared to face down the rabid right in her own party and to fulfil the promises that she made today, because we know there are some in the Conservative Party who take the view that the best way forward is to make the UK a model of deregulation, along the lines of some countries in the world where there are no workers’ rights, where people live in fear of their job security and whose quality of life is far lower than that than even exists in the UK at the moment.

I was interested in the First Minister’s earlier comments regarding our future relationship with the EU, in particular the implications for Welsh ports. He suggested that it would be unacceptable for Northern Ireland to have more favourable customs arrangements than Wales. So, in that context, in that scenario, would he be arguing against such terms for Northern Ireland, or would he seek a similar differentiated approach for Wales in order to defend our ports and our economy?

I wouldn’t want to see customs at all between any point in the UK and any point in the Republic of Ireland. What I fear is that a deal will be done where there will be no customs posts at all on the border between Northern Ireland and the republic, but yet there will be in the Welsh ports. If you were an operator, the last thing you would want is to have to go through customs physically, and instead of going through Holyhead you go through Cairnryan to Larne and into Northern Ireland, which gives Northern Ireland a significant competitive advantage over the Welsh ports. That would represent, for me, an unfair outcome.

First Minister, I think a clear Brexit was always the most likely outcome, given what people voted for in the referendum, but now what happens afterwards has to be our main focus. Do you agree with me that we should seek arrangements that are based on respect for our EU neighbours? There should be no part of wishing the EU to fail; that will cause huge problems for us directly. A strengthening of the role of the World Trade Organization—I am very concerned that American policy may turn on this issue now, whereas I think much of what people who argued for Brexit predicated their view on was that we would move to World Trade Organization rules, if that was what was required. Finally, the role of NATO—we remember the very successful summit here in Newport—is a way of projecting to the world that Britain still seeks to fulfil its international obligations, and to be a good neighbour.

That’s absolutely true. Brexit is a bit like standing in a restaurant and somebody saying what they don’t want from the menu, then trying to guess what they do want without them necessarily expressing a view on it. As politicians, we’ve all been trying to guess what they want. There are so many different models. For me, it’s always been about making sure that we preserve, protect and enhance the Welsh economy—that is utterly fundamental to my mind—and it is about being a good neighbour. Europe doesn’t do disputes very well; history tells us that. We’ve always been far stronger when we’ve worked together. The European Union was the framework for peace—it was the framework for peace in Northern Ireland, for that matter—and it’s hugely important that that goodwill and co-operation that’s been built up over so many years since the end of the war is not lost as we seek a new relationship with the EU in the future.