6. 4. Legislative Consent Motion on the Wales Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:28 pm on 17 January 2017.

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Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 4:28, 17 January 2017

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I start by commending all involved in gathering support for this Bill and making it a better Bill? We’ve heard it’s been a long process. I particularly want to mention the Secretary of State, Alun Cairns, Lord Bourne in the House of Lords, and the First Minister for, I think, his genuine statecraft to make a judgment that you will accept the whole because of the better bits in it, but still having some real reservations about aspects of the Bill. Can I also commend you, Presiding Officer, for the work you’ve done in terms of highlighting the need to look at our own electoral arrangements and matters that should really be resolved in Wales? I think this has produced a powerful body of support across traditions for this Bill.

I’m sorry that consensus will not extend to Plaid Cymru and to UKIP, but I do want to put on record that the speech that we’ve just heard from the leader of Plaid Cymru was measured and nuanced, and I think more powerful for that. I’m prepared to take you at your word in terms of constitutional development and taking forward parts of what are likely now to happen in terms of an Act that will emerge, and ensure that the institution that we all have the privilege to be part of does strengthen. Likewise, with UKIP, they have, themselves, been on a journey, and they’re now, I think, broadly supportive of devolution, and there is an argument that can be made—I don’t agree with it, but there is an argument about the tax-raising powers requiring, in some people’s views, a referendum.

The First Minister said that this has been a long journey, and I think nine of us—or 10 of us, perhaps—have been here from the start. This is not the time to give an old uncle’s speech. [Laughter.] You’re not going to get that. But it is appropriate, I think, to look at the whole development in perspective. The First Minister was quite right: when we started, we didn’t even have the separation of powers in this institution. We were a corporate body. That itself led to all sorts of convolutions. We had no responsibility for raising revenue and, really, only—which I think were important—secondary powers over secondary legislation.

So, we didn’t exactly start as robustly as they did in Scotland, or even in Northern Ireland. I think the progress we’ve made has really been based on a remarkable level of consensus. All parties, really, have been contributing to our constitutional development. Now, today, we are, inevitably, in this debate going to focus on some of the differences. But I do want to put on record the appreciation I have, as a Welsh Conservative, that we have been a part, when most of us actually opposed the principle of devolution back in the 1990s, but we have worked hard to produce a more robust settlement.

The 2006 Government of Wales Act prepared the path for primary legislative powers, and owed much to the genius of a former Presiding Officer, Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas. Of course, those powers, which we could get bit by bit with the consent of Westminster, were then turned completely on by the 2011 referendum. It was a very subtle way, I think, of advancing the constitutional settlement at the time and, of course, it did separate legislative and executive powers, which is the core, really, of the way we do politics in the Westminster model.

I do want to say a word in favour of the St David’s Day process because I do think it took the whole debate on. I realise that not everything has been delivered to the satisfaction of all who are even supporting the LCM this afternoon, but I do think it was a good way to work. Between the publication of the draft Bill and now the Bill that is going forward and likely to become an Act, there has been much movement. Again, I do commend all those who have worked to achieve that progress.

Can I just say something about the Westminster model? It’s really important. It’s remarkable, I think, in many ways, that the even more radical devolution settlement in Scotland still takes the Westminster model. The way that Parliament is constituted is very much part of that tradition. I think it’s a great resource, and it has given real life and endurance to politics in many parts of the world. It was always my disappointment, if devolution were going to happen, that we didn’t have a more robust form of establishing an Assembly in accordance with a Westminster-type model. That’s why I’ve always thought that primary law-making powers were necessary. I thought that from day one of being an Assembly Member, despite my initial opposition to devolution. It’s also why I think we have to accept the responsibility to raise some of our own revenue. It does seem to me to go with the legislative function and, indeed, with the executive function. The Welsh Government has always been fairly powerful. I always thought it was odd that some Conservatives didn’t quite see that: that we’d given power to Government, but not very much power to the scrutiny of that Government, or to the legislation it would require through which, of course, we get maximum level of control. So, I do think that the way that we are progressing, towards a fuller form of the Westminster model, is to be welcomed.

There are areas where consensus was not possible. I think it is true what the First Minister said: that this has principally been caused by a desire on the part of the UK Government to preserve a single unified legal jurisdiction. But I would say here, despite my own private opinions, which I won’t rehearse as they are pretty well known, that there is little evidence amongst the public that they want us to move forward in this area to form a separate jurisdiction. And both my party and, it has to be said, the Labour Party—if you look at the Labour Party both here and in Westminster—are themselves somewhat divided. We simply have not had a consensus to argue the case for a separate jurisdiction and, particularly, the devolution of policing powers and powers over sentencing policy and such matters. However, if you refer back to the report of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on this subject of a separate or distinct legislation that was issued in the fourth Assembly, it is quite clear that what we do in making law creates a body of law and, at some point, the substance, the volume of that legislation, is going to be such that there probably will be a formal recognition. There’s already a recognition in the administration of law, and you only need to talk to a senior judge about how dramatically their own procedures have changed to ensure that the judiciary understands the constitutional settlement in Wales and is able to interpret Welsh law properly.

The direct consequence of not having a separate legal jurisdiction is that the number of reservations within a reserved-powers model has been much higher than would otherwise have occurred, and you only need to compare our settlement with the one in Scotland. And this, in my view, will require the two Governments—the Welsh Government and the UK Government—to work hard to ensure that the settlement we now do have does not restrict our ability to legislate over devolved areas, because that really would be a poor outcome. But I do believe the UK Government is sincere in not wanting to roll back powers, and I do, from all the heat and bluster we occasionally get, think there are pretty good relations between the Welsh and UK Governments on matters clearly in the Welsh interest, and I’m sure that will continue.

Can I say that the Wales Bill is generous in places, in the view of all of us? And I was grateful that Leanne Wood mentioned some of the areas, as did the First Minister, in terms of the electoral arrangements, energy, transport and some other matters as well. I think these are a prize and they are worth having, because it puts much more of the constitutional settlement within our control. We could look at the issue of the franchise and whether it should be extended to 16 and 17-year-olds, we could determine the size of the Assembly and the electoral arrangements, subject, of course, to a supermajority. These are very, very important advances. To conclude, Presiding Officer, I think we can now move forward with a stronger devolution settlement, which will give the Assembly and the Welsh Government the scope to meet the political challenges ahead, and I urge Members to support the LCM.