Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson—Bethan Jenkins.

Thank you. My first question is something I’ve raised with you quite a lot now in the last few weeks. With regard to NSA Afan, I wondered whether we could have an update on the inquiry, specifically because I’m getting contacts from people in Bettws who have funding streams through the delivery of this service and they tell me they don’t have a clue as to what is happening. What isn’t clear to me is that, when problems were raised at Plas Madoc, the funding was continued until the investigation was completed. So, I want to understand, if you are treating this in a different way, why that is. You mentioned the police in previous answers to myself. Has it all been passed over to the police, or are you still investigating internally as Welsh Government?

I’m conscious of the Member’s interest in this and also that of Dai Rees, the other Member that’s raised this on several occasions with me. I’m very cautious of the ongoing police investigation and also our governance review of this. It is slightly different to the Plas Madoc event. I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t. If I remove funding people criticise me for not removing it early enough, or not leaving it run for the organisations. What I am conscious about is that the indirect consequence of NSA not having funding—how can we make sure that services provided to the local community are continued as best they can. My team have started discussions, advance discussions, with Neath Port Talbot council about stepping into that space for delivery.

That answers the question for Neath Port Talbot, but it doesn’t in terms of Bridgend. It wasn’t a criticism; I was trying to find out the differences between the operations and why you’ve made that decision, and I’m still not really that clear.

On the wider Communities First agenda, I’m hearing from those who have an interest in the future of Communities First that the consultation wasn’t really as strong as it could have been. I want to understand how you’re analysing the consultation responses. I hear you’ve got very comprehensive responses from children writing a little note to say how important the services have been for them personally. How are you going to analyse how important they are and then come up with a plan to try and deliver the future of whatever scheme you have in mind?

Of course, I’m grateful for the Member’s views on Communities First and those of many Members who’ve taken part in the consultation. The consultation phase 1 ended on 15 January. I’m surprised at the Member’s comments saying that it wasn’t very successful or delivered successfully from a third party—I assume that’s wrong. We received over 2,300 responses, primarily—80 per cent of them—from the workforce or people who are associated with the organisation in the first place. My team are analysing that programme response very closely—they will give me advice on that very issue and I’m hoping to make a statement about what resilient communities are within the next two or three weeks. I hope that the Member will allow me some time just to finalise details of what the Communities First programme looks like for the future, but I will come back to this Chamber to let Members know.

Thank you, and I look forward to that statement, because I think many people in the sector want to know exactly how any new scheme can be effective in targeting poverty. Many of the people I’ve talked to in the last few weeks have said that it’s about the economy and boosting the job market for the less well-off: for example, more jobs closer to disadvantaged areas, action to improve terms and conditions—for example, a living wage—and strategies to improve low-paid sectors, e.g. social care and tourism. Are these things that you are considering as key elements of any new programme, because, of course, many of the Communities First projects have been well run and effective, but many, we would say, haven’t achieved those aims of eradicating or tackling poverty in their respective areas?

I think the poverty figures speak for themselves—they’ve been very stubborn, bouncing along the bottom, and what we’ve done as a Government is looked at and reviewed all of our programmes. We’re flexing between some of our Flying Start and Families First programmes; Communities First is under review, looking at what that may look like; we’ve got a big focus, working with Ken Skates regarding employment opportunities—so, Parents, Childcare and Employment, Lift, and Communities for Work. I will come back to the Chamber with a commitment, a vision, around what we do and want to do with our communities to ensure that we can start to turn the crest of poverty in a positive direction.

Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Lywydd. Of course, Plas Madoc Communities First was a grant-recipient body that received funding direct. After the whistleblower was vindicated, with the support of, dare I say, Janet Ryder, Eleanor Burnham and myself, and there were convictions in court, we also had two Wales Audit Office reports, one into Plas Madoc specifically and one into Communities First generally, which I’d asked the then auditor general to commission. Those found, above all, a failure since the inception of Communities First by the Welsh Government to put in place effective corporate governance controls—financial controls, human resource, and audit.

In Higher Shotton, when the Communities First co-ordinator whistle-blew against Flintshire County Council, which was the grant-recipient body, she was subjected to what turned out to be false allegations. Now, in the context of NSA Afan, the lead delivery body for Communities First in Sandfields and Aberavon, you said last week, that, following an investigation that had provided strong evidence of financial irregularities, NSA Afan had had its funding terminated. Was this a grant-recipient body or not? Had heed been given to the Wales Audit Office findings all those years ago of the need to implement those corporate governance, finance, human resource, and audit controls, which had led to the problems of the past?

Thank you for the Member’s question. I prefer not to look in detail at NSA Afan because of the ongoing detailed discussions with South Wales Police and with my audit team. What I can tell the Member is that the decision to terminate funding from NSA Afan wasn’t taken lightly—it was taken following a thorough investigation into the financial governance arrangements with NSA Afan. Our investigation has commenced. The Welsh Government official leading the investigation team informed the Wales Audit Office of the case and has continued to update the Wales Audit Office as it’s been progressed.

There is a rigorous process in place to manage the funding that we provide to thousands of organisations every year. In this respect, the grants centre of excellence is now well established and works to ensure continuous improvements in the delivery of grant funding across all of Welsh Government. What we have to recognise is that this is a huge programme—£300 million-worth of investment in our communities. And of course, at some stages there will be people who will seek to take advantage of a system that they understand. We have to take that in our stride and understand how we can resolve those issues when they come about. I’m conscious of the Member’s interest in all of these activities and, as and when I can release more information about this particular case, I will do.

Well, of course, the particular concern was whether this was a grant recipient body, and whether the Welsh Government have acted on the recommendations of the Wales Audit Office all those years ago in terms of ensuring that effective controls were in place.

But, moving on to a related matter, as I’ve raised with you previously, the ONS figures published last July said Wales had higher numbers—one in eight children living in long-term workless households—than the UK average, and research showing that children living with long-term unemployed parents tend to do less well at school or are at higher risk of unemployment later in life.

Given the findings of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission ‘State of the Nation’ report that more than 65,000 children whose families receive out-of-work benefits or tax credits in Wales were not living in Communities First programmes, how do you respond to the StatsWales workless households figures, which came out two months ago, that show that although the percentage of children living in workless households in Wales had slightly reduced, they had gone up in Wales’s most deprived communities, from Blaenau Gwent to Bridgend, from Denbighshire to Merthyr, and many more besides?

It really troubles me that we’ve got children living in workless households and living in poverty wherever they live, whether that be in a Communities First area or elsewhere. And it’s not always a class issue—this can happen to any communities and any individual.

It is an ambition of this Government to tackle the issue around poverty, and that’s why we are looking at reviewing all of our programmes and interventions, to make sure that we tackle the people that need, in a way that we can deliver with our programmes that we are investing in. It doesn’t given me any pleasure to say that those numbers are stubborn. But there’s nothing wrong with any Government with ambition seeking to make those changes.

I agree, because, sadly, as you know, Wales still has higher child poverty than Scotland, Northern Ireland and all but two of the nine English regions. At least we’ve pulled ahead of two of those regions—I think London and the East Midlands. But, last week, the royal college of paediatricians said that poverty was the biggest threat to children’s health in Wales. I welcome the news, given your previous comments, that your officials have now met the co-production network for Wales, re-named All in this Together, and I even heard you yesterday refer positively to co-production. How do you respond to the statement from the Well North Wales programme, with which you might be familiar, that the more deprived communities of north Wales have around a 25 per cent higher rate of emergency admission than the more affluent communities, and that there is, therefore, a requirement to tackle issues around deprivation and poverty at a local community level by meeting the principles of prudent health, particularly around co-production?

I’m glad the Member and I are clearly coming together on our policies in some areas. [Laughter.] Let’s not be too ambitious. I think the Member’s right to raise the issue of prudent healthcare. Mark Drakeford has been for a long time raising this in the Cabinet setting, and I share his views on this about prevention and early intervention. And that’s why we are tackling issues around adverse childhood experiences, wherever they exist in families and communities. It’s something that we have to make sure we invest in now, to protect for the future. It’s not just a moral issue, but this is a long-term fiscal issue for any Government in power.

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. According to the Fawcett Society, women will lose approximately £300,000 over their working lives because of unequal pay. As you know, enforcement of equal pay legislation is in the hands of the employee. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that ensuring gender-equal pay should be the job of the employer, rather than the employee?

I agree.

Enforcing equal pay rights is made extremely difficult, if not impossible, by the lack of transparency regarding pay by employers. A worker can’t make a claim regarding equal pay unless they know what everyone else is being paid and have a comparator. Admittedly, the Welsh Government have no control over what private sector employers do. However, Welsh Government does have control over what happens in the public sector in Wales. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that pay data at all levels should be made available to public sector workers to facilitate the enforcement of their equal pay rights?

I think the Member raises an important issue around making sure that we get equality in job evaluation. It’s something that many in this Chamber, in all parties, have championed for many years. Ensuring that that happens is another thing, but we’ve been blighted by the ambulance chasers on trying to stop equal pay on the basis of people wanting to stop the claims going ahead. And I think there are many local authorities that have acted very responsibly in terms of the way they operate. The trade unions have brought forward legislation and support for Government interventions in local authorities, and it’s something that I’m very keen that we pursue.

I’m sorry, I didn’t quite hear whether you’re prepared to actually introduce pay transparency in the public sector, because if you’re not, can you explain to women in the public sector how they’re going to enforce their equal pay rights if you won’t tell them what the relative pay rates in the rest of their organisation are?

I think there are lots of data out there around pay and pay scales. It is a matter for the employer in terms of how that is given to employees. But employers will not see any closed doors at Welsh Government level in terms of introduction of equal pay.