Questions now from party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, your White Paper on local government reform deviates considerably from the proposals outlined in the previous draft Bill by having 24 such proposal either omitted, and 13 amended. Some of these would have allowed reporting mechanisms that would enable the electorate to be far better informed, and also far more able to hold their elected members to account. Now, we very much support the proposals for council leaders to hold an annual public meeting and for elected councillors to produce an annual report, and yet you now consider these to be too rigid. The Local Government (Wales) Measure 2011, put in place by your Government, supported this guidance for such democratic accountability. Why are you now rejecting it?

Well, Llywydd, the approach we have taken in the White Paper is to be clear on the objectives that we seek, and the objectives are ones that I share with what the Member said in introducing her question—that local politicians should be answerable and in a continuous relationship with their local populations. The draft Bill published in the last Assembly proposed a particular set of ways in which individuals would be able to demonstrate that, and what we have done is to move away from that in the White Paper to say that there are different ways in different places that you might be able to demonstrate that you are doing what we all agree you need to do. You have to be able to demonstrate it. But if you imagine that you are a good ward councillor and you are putting out three or four newsletters every year around your ward, what is the point of saying to you that, on top of that, you must publish an annual report? Because you are in contact with your population three or four times a year as it is. So, you have to demonstrate it. There is more than one way you can demonstrate it, and we think that giving that local flexibility will, in the end, provide more effective ways of securing that relationship than thinking always that we can set those things here in Cardiff.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The White Paper also proposes to build upon existing regional arrangements where they are in place. However, Estyn has criticised some educational consortia over governance and performance. For example, in June 2016, they criticised the north Wales education consortium for poor working standards, that the rate of improvement in many pupil outcomes had been the slowest out of four regions and that the consortium has been slow to ensure that the governance arrangements align with the Welsh Government’s national model for regional working. If you’ve got a model now with such heavy criticism and not seen to be working effectively, why would you wish to replicate this?

Well, I do think the Member is very one-sided and selective in her view of education consortia, because there are very many successful things to their credit that they are able to demonstrate right across Wales. The regional way of working is one that is firmly endorsed in our White Paper. What we are able to do is meet the governance criticism that the Member has raised, because we say in our White Paper that having agreed regional arrangements, and having agreed the functions that will be discharged on the regional level, we will legislate to create a consistent approach to governance right across Wales. I think that will go a very considerable way to meeting some of the anxieties that have been expressed about some aspects of governance in some regional arrangements.

Thank you again, Cabinet Secretary. Now, in response to a recent written Assembly question to me, you state that you have asked local authorities to highlight the ways in which they will consult, but the agreed outcome appears to be through their websites to encourage participation by citizens. However, this consultation is certainly going to bypass many of our constituents across Wales, and this has been borne out recently by the Labour Swansea council cabinet member for transformation and performance, when he said,

While more of our council services and information are provided online these days, we understand that not everyone has access to the internet, particularly older people and those on low incomes, who often need our services the most.’

Cabinet Secretary, these are the very people who I believe should be entitled to know that their model of local government is changing and that it is moving more towards a regional basis. How then do you convince this Chamber that this is deemed acceptable in terms of communicating with the people of Wales who have a right to know how their local services are going to be delivered?

Llywydd, I entirely agree with the point that the Member is making, in that we have a shared ambition to make sure that the proposals in the White Paper are drawn to the attention of as many people as possible across Wales and that we make particular efforts to reach those people who otherwise may not find these matters drawn to their attention. I definitely expect local authorities to play their part in that. The Welsh Government will play our part. If I might say to the Member, I think political parties have a responsibility in this as well. We are all in the business of local government and trying to persuade citizens to align themselves with our policy preferences, and I hope that all political parties here, as they prepare for May’s elections, will think that the future of local government and different ways of improving that future is something that we ourselves will want to make sure we draw attention to in our communications with the electorate.

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Lywydd. Minister, one of the traditional functions of local councils is in the field of housing. But sometimes excessive regulation can be a block, particularly for smaller house building companies, and some of these regulations relate to great crested newts. Now, the UK Government has brought out a White Paper in which they propose a newt-offsetting scheme. This would allow developers to build on sites containing newt ponds as long as they paid for good newt habitats to be provided elsewhere, so the newts, as a species, should continue to thrive. I wondered if you thought local councils in Wales might be able to better address the housing shortage if such a scheme were introduced here.

Well, Llywydd, I’m not familiar with the scheme, although I’m sure that my colleague Carl Sargeant, who has responsibility for housing, was aware of it. We have a very ambitious target for affordable housing here in Wales. We’re looking at all sorts of ways in which we are able to accelerate the achievement of that target. The actions that are taken to sustain our wildlife and to threatened species are important as well. I’m sure that my colleague will want to look at the balance that is struck in that White Paper to see if there’s anything we would learn from it in Wales.

Yes, thank you. We do need a balance, but I’m glad that you were mindful of considering it although I appreciate that the responsibility lies automatically with another Minister. But, thank you.

Now, complying with regulations can be a recurring issue for councils. Obviously, we need regulations—sensible regulations, that is—but regulations do add cost. One recurring debate that we will probably be having here over the next couple of years will be which EU regulations we actually want to keep. There have been major issues over household waste collections in recent years. In Cardiff, the relevant cabinet minister, Bob Derbyshire, has frequently cited the needs to comply with EU regulations, but soon we will no longer have to comply with them. Given that, would now be a good time for councils to review their policies on waste collection?

Well, in general, Llywydd, I agree with the point that, with the UK leaving the European Union, all public authorities who will find themselves in a different position post Brexit need to begin to think about choices that they may have in that context. By and large, regulations are there to serve important political and public purposes. Where, however, there will be different opportunities in the future—in, for example, procurement, as far as the Welsh Government is concerned—it’s a sensible suggestion that local authorities as well should look at the changed circumstances they will find themselves in and begin to think now about how they will wish to make any accommodations.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Now, the last time I asked you questions with your local government brief, I was talking about traffic charges in Cardiff and you said you would write to me, which indeed you did. So, thank you for the information you provided. You stated that, in terms of parking and traffic violation charges that were collected by Cardiff council and other councils—Cardiff was the example I used; of course, it’s applicable throughout Wales—you stated that these fines would be ring-fenced to the particular department involved. So, I wondered how you, as a Government, enforce the ring-fencing of the fines.

Llywydd, what I recall saying to the Member when he last raised this is that, as well as writing to him with some details, I would add this item to the agenda of matters that I discuss with local authorities when I’m in contact with them. I’ve been able to make a start on doing that. I do plan to use the next few months, while the White Paper is out for consultation, to use the opportunity to talk to local authorities about things other than local government reform. So, I look forward to being able to put on the agenda with local authorities the matter that the Member has raised with me previously, and to do that with a larger number of them over the weeks and months ahead.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sian Gwenllian.

Thank you, Llywydd. Last week, in response to questions from Plaid Cymru on the location of the new Welsh Revenue Authority, the First Minister said this:

we’re talking about jobs requiring specialist skills that aren’t available in Wales, in the main.’

He went on to say:

Most of the people will come from London’.

Again, when the director of delivery for the authority was asked the same question at the Finance Committee the next day, namely whether the relevant expertise exists in Wales and whether the authority will recruit in Wales, the director said that the skills were available here and that the authority will recruit in Wales. Who, in your view, should we listen to, then? The First Minister or the specialist appointed to establish this body? If it’s the view of the specialist that is valid, is the First Minister guilty of misleading the Assembly? Certainly, he is guilty of undermining and denigrating Wales. Once again, Labour is saying that Wales is ‘too poor, too small, too stupid’, to quote the immortal Alex Salmond. That’s disgraceful and the First Minister should apologise.

Well, I reject almost everything that the Member just said, Llywydd. There’s no contradiction between what the two sources that she quoted have said to you. There will be 40 people working in the Welsh Revenue Authority. A number of those will be recruited from Wales. A number of them will undoubtedly be recruited from beyond Wales. We are establishing a tax profession for Wales for the very first time. There will be skills needed for the Welsh Revenue Authority that are scarce and very particular. I met yesterday with the chair and chief executive of Revenue Scotland. I explored with them very specifically what they told me was the constant challenge of being able to recruit and retain scarce staff. They told me that they recruit for Revenue Scotland beyond Scotland, and, indeed, beyond the United Kingdom. They don’t have people simply within Scotland, when they too are establishing a profession for the first time. We will need people from in Wales, but we will undoubtedly need people who currently work outside Wales, and we will be very glad, on this side, to attract people who are willing to make their future part of our future here in Wales.

May I just remind you of what the First Minister said? He said:

Most of the people will come from London’.

I’ll move on to the White Paper published by you a few weeks ago on local government reform. There are a number of questions arising from that, mainly whether the kind of regional arrangements proposed create complexity and confusion for the people of Wales. One of the main problems in the public sector in Wales at the moment, according to the Williams commission report, is that it is too complex and therefore bars local authorities from engaging effectively. I would draw the Assembly’s attention to the framework and geographical model proposed in the paper, which is 2.6.10, which could mean that although some services will be presented at a regional level, other services will be provided by other partnerships at a sub-regional level, or even sub-regional partnerships would cross the regional boundaries. So, first of all, do you believe that this model simplifies the way in which local authorities provide services, or will the whole system be extremely confused and accountability will be lost?

Can I say to the Member, of course, that I do acknowledge the fact that complexity is something that we need to consider when we plan for the future of local authorities? If ideas come forward when people are considering the White Paper about what we can do to simplify things and to make the system more accountable to local people in future, then I am open to hearing what people say. In principle, I don’t think that the things that are noted in our White Paper are going to do more to create more complexity than what was in the Plaid Cymru manifesto in the last election, when Plaid Cymru said:

Byddwn yn deddfu i sefydlu... awdurdodau cyfunol rhanbarthol.

Buasai’r un dadleuon yn ymhlyg yn y cynnig hwnnw, ac rwy’n awyddus i ddod o hyd i ffyrdd o fynd i’r afael â hwy a cheisio eu datrys, ac rwy’n siŵr y bydd y trafodaethau a fydd yn digwydd yn ystod y Papur Gwyn yn ein helpu i roi sylw i’r materion a nododd ac a rannaf gyda hi fel materion pwysig i’w datrys.

Thank you. Plaid Cymru is arguing for a simple regionalisation and that’s what the combined authorities are. We’re also making the case for elected mayors as a way of ensuring accountability. Plaid Cymru does welcome the content of the White Paper in terms of committing to introduce proportional voting as a means of conducting local government elections. We would provide this through STV as a mandate for all councils and mandatory for all councils, but providing the option is a step in the right direction.

The argument for introducing a proportional system is an argument that has received cross-party support within the Assembly and in Westminster too, with notable Members of your own party calling for a proportional system at a national level, too. So, do you agree that proposing a proportional system through STV for council elections and the principle in place for national elections too is a practical and valuable way of reviving democracy and ensuring that people do feel that their vote counts, safeguarding fair representation for all political views in Wales?

Llywydd, voting systems are matters that have a variety of views within political parties, as well as between political parties. The proposal in the White Paper is to allow local authorities to make the decision that is right for them in their own context. I’m sure there will be a lively debate here in the Assembly about different views that individuals and parties will have about the best way of securing a voting system nationally in Wales that allows people to feel connected to the work of the National Assembly, and to feel that the way that they cast their vote has an influence on the way that decisions are made here.