We’ll move on to item 5, which is the debate on the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee’s report on its post-legislative scrutiny work on the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I call on the Chair of the committee—John Griffiths.

Motion NDM6239 John Griffiths

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee on the Post legislative inquiry into the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence Act (Wales) 2015, which was laid in the Table Office on 12 December 2016.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I am pleased to be opening the first Plenary debate on the report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. The Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act is a landmark piece of legislation that sets out a statutory framework to prevent abuse and improve support for survivors. But passing legislation isn’t enough—it has to be effectively implemented. So, our committee decided to undertake post-legislative scrutiny to look at how well this was happening with regard to this legislation. During our inquiry, we received written and oral evidence and conducted visits to hear directly from survivors. We’re grateful to all for contributing, but in particular, we want to say ‘thank you’ to those survivors who inspired us with their strength and courage in sharing their stories. For them, and for all survivors, we must get this right. We cannot turn the clock back to stop violence once it has happened. No-one should doubt the Cabinet Secretary’s commitment to address this issue head on. We welcome that all of the recommendations have been accepted, either in full or partially. However, the response to our recommendations is sometimes relatively weak and sometimes provides too little detail. Hopefully, in his response today, the Cabinet Secretary will provide reassurances that the issues we raise in our report are being addressed with the level of urgency required.

Dirprwy Lywydd, the committee shares stakeholders’ concerns about the pace and consistency of implementation. Five years have passed since the White Paper was published, and nearly two years since the Act was passed, but many key components are not in place and are not going to be in place very soon. With every day that passes we risk losing momentum and opportunities to change lives. Services are being cut, organisations are unsure about their future. We are losing time when we could be putting in place preventative measures.

I will now turn to some of our recommendations. Our first recommendation called on the Welsh Government to set out, in the forthcoming delivery plan, dates for a range of items, including statutory guidance. In the first line of the response, the Government said that there was no outstanding statutory guidance. However, elsewhere, the response states that there will be consultation on statutory commissioning guidance in July of this year. So, it would seem that there are outstanding pieces of statutory guidance. Could the Cabinet Secretary clarify that position: what remains outstanding and when will they be published? These pieces of statutory guidance are important. They are the building blocks of the legislation.

In recommendation 3, we called for Welsh Government to prioritise the publication of statutory guidance on commissioning of services. The national adviser told us that the commissioning guidance was critical to the purpose of the Act, yet the draft guidance will not be consulted on until July. In their response, the Government cite the toolkit that was launched by the Lloyds Bank Foundation and Welsh Women’s Aid in August 2016, but this was produced independently from Welsh Government and is not statutory. In a sector where commissioning is so vital to the effective delivery of services, it is frustrating that this guidance is not yet ready.

Closely linked to the issue of commissioning services is that of funding. In recommendation 5, we called for a timetable by which the advisory board will complete its work into a sustainable funding model for the specialist sector. We were told that this is a priority for Welsh Government, and we welcome this commitment. The response states that progress will be reported to the Cabinet Secretary at the advisory group in July, but the committee would like the timetable called for so that we know when this work will be completed. We also called for sufficient funding to cope with any increased demand for services. We welcomed the increase in the revenue component of the domestic abuse services grant, but would appreciate clarity from the Cabinet Secretary as to whether the £400,000 increase will meet the likely increase in demand, given that funding is static for 2017-18.

In recommendation 8, we called for clarity, as a matter of urgency, into the legal status of the forthcoming delivery plan, when it will be published and how it will be consulted on. The Government accepted this recommendation, but doesn’t provide much information on this. We are told that the legal status will be considered by the task and finish group that has been established by the advisory board to develop the plan. We are also told that the task and finish group will determine the publication date when they first meet in February 2017—this month. I would ask the Cabinet Secretary, if he is not able to clarify the legal status and outline when it will be published today, to clarify when these decisions will be made.

I would now like to move on to our findings around education. This has proved to be a controversial issue. The White Paper stated that education on healthy relationships should be mandatory in all schools, but this wasn’t included in the Bill. This issue continued to concern stakeholders such as Barnardo’s, Welsh Women’s Aid, Gwent Police and the national adviser, who wanted greater commitment on this matter. We know that the Cabinet Secretary is sympathetic to these views, as he told us that he agreed that early intervention and education is key to building healthy relationships, and that he was keen to ensure consistency. The committee still feels strongly that there must be requirements for schools to teach children about healthy relationships, or the entrenched and harmful social attitudes about abuse and sexual violence will not be prevented. There is an opportunity with the development of the new curriculum to get this right. This is overdue and would be an important stride forward. It would be good to have further reassurances from the Cabinet Secretary on this crucial matter.

Recommendation 11 calls for the Welsh Government to prepare specific regulations relating to the publication of information by local authorities on how they are exercising their functions in relation to the Act. It remains unclear as to whether the Cabinet Secretary will commit to require local authorities to begin reporting by the start of the 2017-18 academic year. Again, clarity today will be welcome.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to move on to the role of the national adviser. This is a critical role, but we heard that its effectiveness is potentially hampered by limited resources. It is a part-time post with one part-time member of staff to support. We recommended that the Welsh Government should review the adviser’s capacity and consider allocating further resources. Their response states that it has been discussed and considered, and they have agreed to keep it under review. I would appreciate further clarity from Welsh Government on the nature of these discussions and what sort of review is being done. We know that budgets are tight, but it may be that a small increase in resources could have a significant impact on service delivery.

Our final recommendation calls on the Welsh Government to make reference to the national adviser, her responsibilities and annual work plan in the delivery plan and any future national or local strategies. The Welsh Government stated that the task and finish group are responsible for developing the national framework, and that they will make them aware of this recommendation. We would ask that the Welsh Government takes a more proactive role in this, and that they provide a steer to the task and finish group.

In closing, Dirprwy Lywydd, I want to make clear that I know the Cabinet Secretary is committed to addressing these issues, but the committee is concerned that there appears to be a lack of urgency within Welsh Government to take the necessary steps on implementation, as outlined in the Act itself. Given the importance of this legislation, commitment must now be matched by timely and effective action.

Thank you to the committee Chair for setting out the committee’s concerns in a very clear manner. You will have noted that there are many concerns raised by the committee. I’m going to focus on two aspects of the equality committee’s report and the Welsh Government’s response to that report: I want to look at the delivery plan and the role of education.

In recommendation 8, our committee called for clarity on the legal status of the delivery plan, and for dates for the publication of that plan. This was because we are determined that the delivery plan must be one that is legally enforceable or its value, without that, is severely reduced. Without a publication date, there could be inconsistency as local strategies are developed and as local services are commissioned. In responding to the committee, the Welsh Government accepts the recommendations, but then contradicts itself, in a way, saying that the legal status and timetable for publication will be considered by the task and finish group, which met for the first time this month. Now, that doesn’t sound like an issue that has been given urgent attention. Once again, we see the Welsh Government far too slow in delivering in this area. There’s no mention of our concerns about the timetables, the inconsistencies, or whether the plan can be implemented and delivered once those services have been commissioned.

I’m also concerned about the development of healthy relationship education in our schools. This is a preventative measure that is crucial in order to ensure that our young people grow up confident in how to deal with situations of abuse and to identify abuse in the very first place. The original White Paper for the legislation included healthy relationship education on a mandatory basis, and there is very robust evidence for delivering this as part of the curriculum. I accept that it may be part of the curriculum for the future, as the Cabinet Secretary for Education has mentioned, but what about the here and now? What about next September? We know that very young students do suffer gender inequality and stereotyping in school, which can have an effect on the quality of their education and their relationships with fellow pupils and students. Identifying unhealthy relationships is crucial. There’s been some debate in this place on this issue and, ultimately, the Government included new duties for local authorities, namely that they would have to report on how they were dealing with the issue in education.

But, our committee heard that there was no timetable for delivering this duty. So, we made a recommendation that the Welsh Government should implement regulations in terms of the publication of information by local authorities on the purposes of the Act. Our recommendation was that local authorities should start to introduce their reports and that the Welsh Government should ask them to do that at the beginning of the 2017-18 academic year, which is next September. Unfortunately, the response is utterly inadequate. What the Government say is that there may be an opportunity to gather data about what’s happening in terms of healthy relationships in our schools, which is a long way from what the committee recommended. That’s to say, in some specific schools, it may be possible to look at what’s happening through the medium of the work that Women’s Aid and others are carrying out in those schools, but that will be very limited indeed—it’ll be patchy rather than providing the consistency that we need.

There is a broader point here. The committee report notes serious problems with delivery and the pace of delivery. Indeed, sluggishness is the adjective that comes to mind in terms of that delivery, and, once again, we do need to move with pace before people start to see that this is an Act that, in reality, doesn’t have teeth in terms of implementation and making the real difference that we need to see.

I’m pleased also to speak in this debate in relation to what I believe has been some very in-depth scrutiny work on the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. Of course, I was present last term, on the same committee, when the Bill was going through, and the key thing that we’ve found since taking evidence, and indeed during the scrutiny of the Bill, was a lack of uniformity across Wales in terms of implementation now of the Act. Data collection agencies were complaining about duplication. Agencies and third sector groups were stating about data being collected and then everyone is very precious with those data, and data are only of any use if they’re shared and then, you know, sort of used to deliver the outcomes we’re all looking for.

The good practice guide—the guide—commissioned by the Welsh Government and prepared by Welsh Women’s Aid, was published in October 2015 and is described on the Welsh Government’s website as a handy tool to help integrate these issues and approaches into existing teaching and management practices.’

Whilst it does not form part of the statutory guidance made under the Act, it was noted by Welsh Women’s Aid, quote:

we are yet to see a clear plan as to how and when schools and other education establishments will be implementing this guidance, and there is little current evidence of this being implemented consistently across Welsh schools and other educational settings.’

Additionally, another concern was raised that the national adviser actually stated that she does not know how the guide is being used, how it is being distributed, or even monitored. And she doesn’t even know how many schools are using it. So, you know, there’s some ambiguity around that. She also noted she was unsure what resources have been considered locally, regionally, or nationally, to support and enable the schools to drive forward this cultural change. These are the quotes; I’m not saying, you know—.

Further, whilst I understand the deadline is May 2018, I was disappointed to note that, in response to a recent FOI, only one local authority to date has published their updated strategy, aimed at ending violence against women, gender-based violence, domestic abuse, and sexual violence, and this actually is in line with the Act.

In relation to data collection, the national adviser stated that she feared that, without clear direction from the Welsh Government as to the expectation for implementation and mechanisms for data collection and monitoring, there is a real risk that the commitments made by the former Minister will fail to deliver change within our educational settings. On this, the report notes that many stakeholders were concerned that the national adviser’s role was part time, with stakeholders advising the role would be more effective if it was full time and that there was a staff team working collaboratively to ensure that they gather data to inform the strategy on an ongoing basis, other than relying on focus groups.

Now, whilst I am pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to review the capacity of the national adviser’s role, I’m disappointed that they did not mention data collection in their response to this report, because it was very much an important factor. So, I would call on the Cabinet Secretary to seek to undertake regular and effective data monitoring and collection, as part of a forward commitment to require local authorities to begin reporting by the start of the 2017-18 academic year. Any Act is only as good as how well it’s interpreted and implemented. And I think there’s lots more that needs to be undertaken in that regard.

We would also ask that they further consider the calls of the committee’s report to consider allocating additional resources for research and to support the development of local strategies. I would also ask that the—oh, sorry. Finally, we’ve called on the Welsh Government to clarify what sanctions are available to Welsh Ministers if the requirements of the Act are not fulfilled by public authorities. Whilst I welcome that this recommendation has been accepted, I rather hoped that this would lead to some clarity on this matter for our local authorities, our health boards, but the Cabinet Secretary’s response doesn’t make clear what substantiates a good reason not to follow the reason. And I would be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could outline this further. Thanks for the committee for the work, and thanks to all the witnesses coming forward to give evidence. Thank you.

I too welcome the report, and I do welcome the response from Welsh Government. It does indeed demonstrate their commitment to addressing the recommendations made by the committee. I’m going to focus solely on recommendation 6, and that concerns funding for independent domestic violence advisors, or IDVAs, and multi-agency risk assessment conferences, otherwise called MARACs.

IDVAs often offer a lifeline for victims and their children by helping to secure the safety of those who are at high risk of injury or homicide by partners, ex-partners, or family members. And the support they offer is invaluable, as I’m sure you will all agree. Refuge, and many other organisations, have said that work with them has been shown to substantially reduce the risk facing victims of domestic abuse. We all know that, on average, a woman will have experienced 35 assaults before they first call the police. And I will remind the Assembly that, in January of this year, at least 11 women from the UK have been killed by men, or where a man is the principal suspect, according to Counting Dead Women. Eleven women in just one month alone—that is one in every 2.8 days, or one in less than three days. And that is, I think, a stark reminder of why—

Will the Member take an intervention?

Just a second. Of why support to victims of domestic abuse must be a priority.

Thank you for taking this intervention. You were on the same committee when the Bill was coming forward, and now we have an Act. Why is that message not getting across, and how can the Welsh Government, and we as Assembly Members, work better to ensure that we can bring those numbers down?

That has been, Janet, a lifelong ambition of mine, and I think everybody everywhere can join in that. And that is what we do. But, anyway, going back to the report, in Wales, the percentage of required IDVAs to support victims at high risk of abuse is 73 per cent, and, although this does compare well to many areas in England, like the Midlands, whose percentage is a very poor 40 per cent, there is obviously room for improvement. I understand, as the Government’s response to the recommendation points out, that IDVAs and MARACs are often jointly funded from a number of agencies and organisations, and that that funding actually varies across different local authorities and also different regions. I know that, in 2014, Dyfed-Powys Police force had to make significant improvements in this particular area, following a recommendation from a Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary inspection, and that they have done that.

So, my question in all of this is: since IDVAs and MARACs play a critical part in saving lives, and only intervene at the medium to high-risk level, what conversations and discussions, Cabinet Secretary, have you had, both with the Home Office, in terms of maintaining their funding and their commitment to saving those lives, but also with the four police and crime commissioners, who set their plans, and to make sure that, within their plans, there is a clear commitment to supporting the capacity of IDVAs and MARACs within their respective areas?

Thanks to the committee Chair for bringing today’s debate. This was a well-intentioned Act. However, the post-legislative scrutiny work has highlighted serious problems in implementing it, which we’ve been hearing about this afternoon. One of the problems is that local councils, in large part, have to implement the Act, but it comes hard on the heels of other Acts that they also have to implement, such as the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. A major issue that arose during the post-legislative scrutiny was that councils often struggle to find the staff to allocate these extra tasks to, and they’re also struggling to find adequate financial resources. So, it does cause problems.

During the scrutiny, we heard from some very able council officers who were certainly passionate about reducing violence against women, but who told us that their councils struggled with time, with staffing levels, and with money, so it will still be a big job to effectively implement this Act. I welcome the committee’s desire to introduce healthy relationships teaching at schools, but, again, this raises issues of time and expense on already time-pressured curriculums. Also, we should be mindful of a point that has been made in the Chamber recently, which is that domestic violence can affect men as victims, as well as women, albeit in lesser numbers, and I think this aspect could also usefully form part of healthy relationship lessons at school.

I listened carefully to what other people have said and perhaps want to deviate slightly from what some other people have said. I particularly welcome the acceptance of recommendation 4, which is about aligning training packages, because it’s absolutely essential that we’re not overburdening public servants with too many different instructions. And so it’s really important that the needs assessments and outcome frameworks are embedded with the social services and well-being Act, as well as the well-being of future generations Act. So, I think that’s going to be reassuring to practitioners that the training element is going to be taken forward coherently, and that also there’s going to be guidance on the development of joint local strategies, because I think it’s very important that they’re done in bite-sized chunks. But the most important thing that we must take from this is that it’s really, really important that anybody who’s having to cope with people who are experiencing domestic violence, sexual violence, are all singing from the same hymn sheet and all are understanding their particular role in both either preventing it or in ensuring that people get the support that they are entitled to.

I want to relate the rest of my contribution to focus on recommendations 9 and 10 in relation to female genital mutilation. I understand why the Government has only partially accepted recommendation 9 on mandatory education, because I fully understand that there’s no point in making something mandatory if you don’t have the ability to monitor it. I note the agreement not to put any additional burden on schools to obtain additional information from what we already ask them to do. So, I think I take heart from recommendation 10, which is to ensure that the pioneer schools are incorporating the best practice guidance in the way that we’re delivering the new curriculum and that Estyn is going to be inspecting schools on the basis of whatever is in this new curriculum. That’s absolutely essential to me. So, I don’t think this is a rejection of recommendation 9; I think it’s a deferment in line with the pace of travel.

In relation to FGM, it’s absolutely essential that schools appreciate the potential risks that their girls are under, because it’s probably only going to be the schools, or perhaps youth services, after-school services, that are going to be able to spot when a girl is at risk, because, unfortunately, this is mainly a practice that’s conducted by the family members of the girls. Therefore, there have to be other people who are available to safeguard that child.

The data are hard to come by, but I think we know that more than 2,000 women in Wales are living with fully or partially removed genitals, according to Dr Mwenya Chimba, who co-chairs the Wales FGM Forum, and about 1,200 of them live in Cardiff. But, nevertheless, if you think this is not a particular problem in your constituency, I refer you to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, because there are 30 million girls at risk before their fifteenth birthday across the world, so we all have a role to play in stamping out this horrendous practice.

But going back to girls and schools and the role that schools have to play in this country, we absolutely have to ensure that schools can read the runes when a girl is likely to be at risk so that they can take the action required to ensure that the court will safeguard that child before it’s too late, because there is no reversal of FGM—it is a lifelong and deeply scarring event.

Happily, the courts are prepared to take action on this and there is now much more effective action to prevent girls going abroad. But, unfortunately, this has led to a new revival of FGM taking place in this country. We stamped it out in Harley Street, but I was horrified to learn from the London Assembly Member, Jenette Arnold, who was here on FGM Combating Day on 6 February, that this was occurring in the suburbs of London, using either retired or practicing midwives. These are people who’ve been trained in the NHS. So, we have to ensure that everybody understands the Hippocratic oath and that FGM is something we have to all fight against.

We absolutely need to ensure that girls have the space to be able to disclose the possibility of that risk, and that means that we have to have whole-school training on this to ensure that we’re not simply targeting one ethnic group or another. So, it’s got to be a whole-school event and I want to ensure that this is fully embedded in Donaldson, because that is the only way that we are going to be able to combat this practice amongst girls—as well as, obviously, important work that we need to do in the communities affected.

I would like to place on record my appreciation to the Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, John Griffiths, for his adept chairing of our committee. It has been interesting in my short time there. Our short inquiry in the autumn last year was an important piece of work to review the progress of the groundbreaking, landmark Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I also wish to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his role in driving this and his determination to make it succeed.

As our committee’s report states, this Act is internationally recognised as a groundbreaking piece of legislation. The value that the National Assembly for Wales’s scrutiny committees play can be seen by our short but important inquiry. To aid better implementation and to help the Welsh Government improve its approach to the national and local strategies, delivery plans and educational provision, we can act as a critical friend who can offer advice and recommendations. It is testimony to this work that none of the 15 recommendations were rejected. Twelve of the recommendations were accepted in full; three of the recommendations in part. As somebody who has served in local government for over a decade, I particularly welcome recommendation 1 being accepted.

We heard evidence from, amongst others, Flintshire County Council and Wrexham borough Council, who expressed their wish for further meaningful communication and clear direction from Welsh Government. I’m heartened to see the Welsh Government state that guidance will be published in relation to local strategies in July 2017. This will ensure that section 6 of the Act is fulfilled as required.

When we pass laws in this place, we pass them to make a beneficial difference to the lives of Welsh people. To ensure this, it is imperative that local government and relevant agencies are in synergy with Welsh Government, with nothing lost in translation. Cabinet Secretary, how do you think we can aid the partnership of local authorities and Welsh Government to ensure better outcomes?

Recommendation 10 of our committee sought that the Welsh Government should ensure that all schools, as has been mentioned by others today, should use the good practice guide developed by Welsh Women’s Aid and put in place monitoring arrangements on the effectiveness of this guide. As members of the committee, we received extensive and largely consensual evidence around the importance, again, of teaching children and young people, as Jenny Rathbone and Joyce Watson have said, about healthy relationships. It was our belief that compulsory education is key to preventing violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence in the first place. The Welsh Government has accepted this and states it will be addressed going forward by Estyn’s thematic review of existing healthy relationship provision that is taking place during the 2016-17 academic year, and this will cover a selection of schools.

I was grateful to the individuals and organisations who came to the Senedd, as others have stated, to give evidence on this vital matter. We must continue to work together to ensure our good intentions, cross-party, are carried into the realities of Welsh life. Gwent Police, the police force in my constituency, submitted written evidence that stated that very limited numbers of staff have had any training through the National Training Framework’, and although I’m assured that this will be addressed in a timely manner, it sends a note of real caution to us all that passing laws is not a job done. We must ensure that the transformative impact of legislation is felt in our Welsh communities and across our Welsh schools, further education institutions and higher education institutions. The statute book is not the end of the journey of creating effective law. Diolch.

Can I thank the committee Chair, John Griffiths, for bringing forward this report, and the committee for the work that they’ve done on delivering it? As Rhianon Passmore said, I think we should probably remind ourselves at the outset that this Act was a groundbreaking piece of legislation, moving into new territory where no other legislature in the UK had gone. It was therefore always likely that there would be early experiences that would highlight where improvements could be made, and this report, I think, offers recommendations to enable the Government to do that.

Although others have also touched on the education recommendations, that is the area that I want to focus on. I also would like to talk specifically about abuse perpetrated through coercive behaviour, which often gets less attention that physical abuse, but is no less damaging. It invariably takes place over an extended period of time and represents a continual pattern of behaviour where one partner is controlling and delivering an almost permanent sense of fear. Victims are told what to do, who they can see, what they can spend, what they should eat and how they should dress. In fact, the abuser takes control of every aspect of the victim’s life, stripping them of all confidence, making them feel worthless and making them believe that they could not function without the abuser ruling their life.

Sometimes, the impact on victims may not be as immediately evident, particularly as there are no physical scars, but, without doubt, over a period of time, the impact on victims will be as devastating as any other form of abuse.

So, it’s important that young people are educated at the earliest opportunity on issues around violence against women, domestic abuse, sexual violence and coercive behaviour. I’m therefore pleased that the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report contains a number of recommendations around education and that the Welsh Government’s Live Fear Free website focuses on the role of our education system in teaching young people about healthy relationships, something that has been referred to by a number of Members today.

So, I note particularly the Welsh Government’s response to partially accept recommendation 9 of the report, which calls for a commitment to including teaching about healthy relationships in the new curriculum. This partial acceptance may be because the design of the curriculum is still being developed, to be available from 2018. But, from my part, I would strongly support this recommendation. Indeed, I was very pleased to recently present awards to certain young people from Merthyr schools and youth organisations who were working on projects around healthy relationships. Today, I learned, from a visit from Pen y Dre school in Merthyr—they came to the Assembly this morning—that they are going to be continuing to deliver this. The vital role that such awareness-raising education plays in preventing abuse in future shouldn’t be underestimated.

Recommendation 11, on the publication of information by local authorities on how they are implementing the Act, again appears to only be partially accepted in the context of the curriculum review. I would hope, however, that recognition of the importance of including healthy relationships education in the new curriculum will carry with it a recognition of the need to monitor the delivery and effectiveness of such education.

Can I finally say that I welcome the Welsh Government’s acceptance of recommendation 13, which extends the education of our young on healthy relationships to those studying in HE and FE? In conclusion, Deputy Presiding Officer, I think we should be rightly proud of this groundbreaking legislation that we have here in Wales and recognise the importance of educating our young people about all forms of abuse, including those that are not always readily recognised as such. Addressing this with young people at an early age could be the long-term solution to dealing with behaviours that lead to violent and coercive abuse in relationships.

Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for giving me the opportunity to speak in this debate on such an important subject.

I’m not on this committee, but I’d like to thank the committee for looking at the very important Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, because I think, as so many people have said, it was groundbreaking legislation and I really welcomed it, as did the whole Assembly, and I hope we can really do it justice in the implementation here in Wales, because obviously the key now is how do we implement it.

I also would like to thank the committee for doing this post-legislative scrutiny fairly early on so that we can see now where the hitches are and where we need to make some changes. I’d like to thank the committee for doing that, because I know people have expressed some concern about the pace and the consistency of implementation. I think that there are still some practical improvements that need to be made.

I, along with many others, want to particularly mention recommendation 9 of the committee’s report in relation to teaching about healthy relationships in our schools. That was the one area that wasn’t really concluded in the Act and it was left for the review and for the Donaldson review to take this into account and see how it would be implemented. I do think there is a degree of confusion in people’s minds about exactly what is happening about how this is going to be developed in schools. So, I’d be grateful if the Minister were able to clear this up when he does reply.

I wholeheartedly agree with most other people who have spoken that it’s absolutely key that we tackle attitudes to healthy relationships early on in a child’s education, because it’s vital that we do give young people positive information and advice in this area. Because, if we don’t, where are they going to see the role models? Who’s going to inform their views? I think we do know how much information is freely available on the internet and on social media that is negative information and can lead to negative attitudes and the formation of unhealthy attitudes. In particular, I think the issue of ideas about relationships and consent is something that is really important—that that is discussed in school. And the sooner we try to provide this on healthy relationships, the better. I know that it is happening, but it is happening in a very patchy way, and I do not understand whether it is actually compulsory for it to happen or not, and I feel very strongly that it should be compulsory—that it is absolutely vital that we do have this as a compulsory element in the school curriculum.

My understanding of it is that it is currently covered in key stage 2 as part of personal and social education, which includes lessons on healthy relationships and domestic violence, but that schools do not have to deliver the entire programme, although it’s considered good practice to do so. Then, sex and relationships education in more depth is covered in science in key stage 3, which many experts say is actually too late and too focused on the biological. Because we do want to look at general attitudes—the attitudes that young men have towards young women, and to try to encourage healthy relationships. I know that the Donaldson review, ‘Successful Futures’, recommended that health and well-being be one of the six areas of learning, and this includes SRE. And, again, I think SRE is the key to preventing violence against women. I think we’ve talked a lot about it being as early as possible; we must get in so that we get rid of the stereotypes that do arise, and we do know what happens with some attitudes within schools. I would also like to make the point that, when we do get age-appropriate, good-quality SRE in schools throughout Wales, it must also be LGBT inclusive.

I know that children themselves are calling for help in navigating these choppy waters. I had a meeting with a youth forum in Cardiff, and top of their list was healthy relationships. That’s what they wanted to have in schools. And I’ve done some work recently with the campaigner for girls’ rights, Nikki Giant, who I think I’ve mentioned in the Chamber before for the work she’s done surveying teenage girls on body image, sexual bullying and harassment. In her manifesto for girls’ rights, she states that one in three girls and young women are likely to be the victim of violence and domestic abuse and calls for young healthy relationship advocates to be recruited, trained and appointed in schools across Wales, in line with the Act. So, in conclusion, I think the Act is a huge step forward, and I think we are all very proud of it, but I do think that the key thing that will take it further and will start trying to help form young people’s attitudes at an early age is to ensure that we get that education in the schools and that we do make it compulsory.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the report following the post-legislative inquiry into the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015. I’d like to thank John Griffiths and the committee, and the wide range of stakeholders and survivors who gave evidence and played a critical role in forming the report. I’d also place on record a thank you to this Assembly, because they’ve been very supportive of the introduction of this Act and, indeed, there are many Members in this Assembly who have played a pivotal role in its development.

Llywydd, I accept or partially accept all 16 recommendations. The report recognises the challenges faced in implementing this new legislation, but also the progress that has been made to date. And I listened carefully to the contribution of many Members who are right to raise the issues of the pace of introduction. I also am frustrated with that process too, but I can give you my assurance that I have made some significant changes to my team and I’ve looked at the implementation and how we seek to deliver on these strategies and the guidance, and I will update the Chamber as soon as I’ve got some more detail that I can share with you.

The report reflects a point in time, 18 months on from the Act coming into force, and it will help inform further implementation and the delivery of the delivery framework. Since the Act was passed, we’ve appointed the first national adviser, published the national training framework and piloted ‘ask and act’. I’ve listened to the observations made by Members with regard to the advice from the national adviser in terms of her workload, and I have introduced a secondee into the department to help with the national adviser and also to restructure the department.

We’ve published guidance for schools and colleges, consulted with survivors, published the report ‘Are you listening and am I being heard?’, and also published a national strategy under the Act to refresh the ministerial advisory group. I intend the ministerial advisory group to be a very supportive element of the information I require. Experts are one thing, and they’re great and we need experts, but I also need experience: people who have experienced the system that they are going through. Survivors of domestic violence are critical in making sure that I make the right decisions and we are able to implement the Act. I’ve told my team I expect that to be reflected in the advisory panel.

In terms of some of the questions that Members raised with me today: on the local strategies, guidance will be issued to local authorities and local health boards to assist with their local strategies in July of this year. With regard to commissioning guidance, the commissioning guidance we plan to publish under the Act will seek to ensure that no matter where a victim lives there are strong and specialist services ready to help, and we intend to consult on statutory commissioning guidance by July of 2017 also. I hope that is helpful to the Chair in his winding up.

There were many observations with regard to specific issues. I think Gareth alluded to the delivery and the information that was received at committee about sometimes no staff in place, no funding nor any methods to do that. I will not accept that process. We have to make sure this happens and I will be very robust with organisations that tell you that that is the case but don’t tell me. I will make sure my adviser follows that work up.

The work with police and crime commissioners and the UK Government is something that we are working very closely on. Joyce Watson, again, a champion of this cause—. I’m pleased that the PCCs and chief constables across the whole of Wales have made tackling this issue one of their key priorities in their work plan. That’s something I’m grateful for. We often have political spats between different parties and different Governments.

Can I say that I fully support Liz Truss in conducting an emergency review of the way perpetrators of domestic abuse directly cross-examine their victims in family courts. I’ve written to Liz Truss to tell her that and I hope and wish her well in that process, too.

I said earlier on, the advisory group will be giving me advice on commissioning guidance and sustainable funding. These are critical parts of the process. For far too many years, not just in domestic violence services, but third sector organisations also have often been concerned about the way funding is given on an annual basis. We have to come to terms with what services are required, who delivers them well and how are we going to fund them? The two elements of the task group, I’ve asked for further advice on—. When I’ve got to a conclusion on that I will again write to the committee informing them of that.

One of the strong messages that has come through from this committee report and, indeed, from the debate today is around education and the issue of early intervention and prevention. Our whole ethos around ACEs and tackling the issue around intervention is something that this Government is absolutely keen on. I’ve had many discussions with the education Secretary and other colleagues in the Cabinet and we are looking very closely at what the education needs are. I have always said I think it’s right that we should have curriculum-based activity around healthy relationships. I’m trying to ensure that my colleagues are able to do that but I would urge caution if we expect the education system to deliver everything. Actually, there is a responsibility on all of us in our family home life, in parenting and in schools—each and every one of us can play a part, but only a part. I hope that our conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Education continue to be fruitful.

Can I pick up on Dawn Bowden’s point? She was very right to bring to the forefront how people are affected by domestic violence or the whole point of this. There are two elements to this: dealing with the victim of domestic violence, whether that be directly or indirectly, whether it’s a family member or otherwise—. But we should also not forget the issue of the perpetrator, and that’s a very important part of this. Finding funding to balance the issue between victim relationships and focusing on perpetrators, where often a perpetrator will move from victim to victim to victim, and we know that—. We have to make sure we break that cycle, and that’s why we have to think about what the needs of the victim are, but also what the needs of the perpetrator are, because we’ve got to break that cycle. Some perpetrators we know have been victims of domestic abuse or family dysfunction in their early years as well, and that’s why the focus is on the ACEs—domestic violence is one of those ACEs—we have to get underneath that, making sure that we can break the cycle in the longer term. The resilience of individuals is different; everybody is different. Some people could cope with that, but some others can’t, and we have to make sure we get into the space and support them in that quest.

I must say that some of the most dangerous perpetrators I believe are narcissistic sociopaths, and I think the danger is that we probably all know them. It is incumbent on us all that we are able to identify them, and where we identify them, we should do something about that. The particular characteristics of these people are something that may surprise some people and may not surprise others: a driven quest for power—a narcissistic sociopath does not care about anything other than himself; it’s a destructive power control over people; behaviours that seek love and admiration; to be sure, this isn’t needy love—it’s not even about emotional love—it’s about power, the tools to manipulate and dominate. And I’m sure many of you will be able to recognise that in people. There are no apologies, no guilt and no remorse under circumstances. They believe that they are a gift to the world who make it richer and more colourful, therefore they’re more calculating. Even cruel actions are justified.

Well, if you’re married to a financial or professional successful narcissist, it doesn’t always mean that they’ll engage in physical abuse, but it does happen sometimes. What it does mean it might ruin their reputation and destroy what they’ve accomplished. Again, it probably doesn’t need to either. They manage to accomplish what they want quite successfully through words and deeds. So, because they know who you are and the person you’re striving to become and how to push your buttons—in other words, they know what you value, what you like about yourself, so they devastate you. Those are the very things they pounce on. Colleagues, it’s incumbent that we recognise this wherever we are, and we make sure this doesn’t happen in our community.

Finally, the point of the report is to focus people’s minds—it certainly focused Government’s minds. I welcome the report, even where there are critical elements to it. But I do think that what we need to do is refocus our collective responsibility on making sure that we can deliver on this groundbreaking piece of legislation. Diolch yn fawr i chi.

Thank you very much, and I call on the Chair of the committee to reply to the debate—John Griffiths.

Diolch yn fawr, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Can I begin by thanking Members for their contributions today, because I think the number of contributors is testament to the strong feeling in this Assembly that we need to effectively prevent domestic abuse, sexual violence and violence against women, and redouble and renew our efforts to make sure that this legislation is effective?

There have been quite a number of common themes, and I think the strongest one has been around education and healthy relationships, and understandably so if we’re talking about prevention, obviously; we need to make sure that in the earliest years and throughout school and beyond, our young people are receiving the right messages and developing the right attitudes. So, on the points made around a mandatory approach, however it’s shaped and however it’s carried forward, we must be confident that our schools will consistently and effectively teach healthy relationships to our pupils. Obviously, Donaldson is absolutely key as far as schools are concerned, and we also have measures in this legislation for further and higher education. This was recognised in the contributions today. We must make sure that we get it right as far as education is concerned, so I was very pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary recognise that and, indeed, refer to discussions with colleagues to ensure that we do have that consistent approach required of our education system. Obviously the committee, and I’m sure all Members here and stakeholders outside, will be following developments very carefully and closely as far as that’s concerned.

There are also general themes, Dirprwy Lywydd, around the pace of the implementation, the effectiveness of implementation, and many examples given in terms of recommendations from the committee and the responses from Government as to how that needs to be looked at again and taken forward in as timely and effective a way as possible. Again, I was very pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary recognise those concerns in the committee’s report and in the debate today, and, again, undertake to refocus Welsh Government’s energies and work to ensure that those concerns are properly understood and acted upon. Again, I’m sure everybody here, the committee and stakeholders outside, will follow developments very closely as far as that’s concerned.

Some of the more specific points raised, Dirprwy Lywydd, I think, were very interesting for us. There are aspects around training, underlining training, which came across very strongly in the evidence that we took, so that the requirements of this legislation should logically and obviously, really, be aligned with the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, to ensure that those local authorities and others required to implement this legislation can do so in a cost-effective way by aligning their training efforts around those different pieces of legislation. Because they do complement each other, they do require many things in common, and so that’s, I think, quite a commonsense approach to take.

I think Dawn Bowden was absolutely right, and it was referred to by the Cabinet Secretary, in terms of coercive abuse and controlling attitudes, and how significant that is in a general picture of abuse. So, we do need to make sure that, coming back to healthy relationships education, it is mindful of that particular aspect of abuse, and it does make sure that the healthy attitudes that are developed through education avoid those potential pitfalls. It is a wide-ranging scene when we look at the abuse that occurs; it’s not always what people would most readily and obviously think of, and we have to ensure that healthy relationships education captures all aspects of abuse.

The good practice guide is obviously very useful in terms of schools, and we do need to ensure, as Rhianon Passmore said, that there is a consistent approach taken to that. Also, I think, we should recognise the strength of what Jenny Rathbone said around female genital mutilation, the work going on in pioneer schools, and Donaldson, and, again, how Estyn inspects. That must be at the forefront of development that takes place. Joyce Watson spoke, as she did effectively in committee, on the independent violence against women advisers and the multi-agency groupings, and the importance of joining up with UK Government and the police and crime commissioners, and, again, I very much welcomed that contribution, because it is very important to this debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders, again, referred to the national adviser and some of the capacity issues that the Cabinet Secretary recognised. And it was good to hear the Cabinet Secretary talk about his view that we do need to look at these matters again, and, indeed, he has taken action and will consider matters further.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I can see you indicating that time is very short—very short indeed—so I will conclude by thanking everyone, particularly the Cabinet Secretary because he really did listen to the debate and respond to the committee’s concerns. I know that, as we go forward, we will continue to work very closely with the Cabinet Secretary to make sure that there is that renewed focus and commitment from Welsh Government to ensure that this extremely important legislation, recognised by all the contributions today and our committee report and the stakeholders concerned, is now the subject of renewed focus and action from Welsh Government to ensure that that effective and timely implementation is driven forward. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the committee report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, under Standing Order 12.36, that motion is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.