<p>Group 3: Tax Rates and Bands — Local Authority Representations (Amendment 30)</p>

11. 9. Debate: Stage 3 of the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Bill – in the Senedd at 4:36 pm on 28 March 2017.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:36, 28 March 2017

(Translated)

Therefore, we move on to group 3, which relates to local authority representations on tax rates and bands. The lead and only amendment in this group is amendment 30, and I call on Steffan Lewis to move and speak to his amendment.

(Translated)

Amendment 30 (Steffan Lewis) moved.

Photo of Steffan Lewis Steffan Lewis Plaid Cymru 4:36, 28 March 2017

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. This introduces a new subsection to section 24 relating to tax rates and bands, and the impact would be to allow local authorities to make representations and innovative proposals on land transaction bands and rates to be considered by the Welsh Government. The Bill provides a golden opportunity for us to actually implement the tax in relation to the policy objectives of the Government, but also in relation to the various requirements of the various communities of Wales.

There’s a major opportunity here for the Government and local authorities. The intention of our amendment, therefore, is to ensure that local authorities can look at the possibilities of this Bill and make representations to the Welsh Government in the hope of realising such possibilities. For example, it’s possible that a local authority may identify a need to vary the highest rate on additional residential properties within specific residential areas. It’s reasonable, therefore, that a local authority should make representations to the Welsh Government on that kind of variation to the tax, and this amendment safeguards the ability to do that in future and to do so formally, of course. I hope that there will be an appreciation across the Chamber that what we’re doing here is trying to be creative and to see whether there are ways and means of using our new fiscal powers—minor powers as they are at present—in order to implement the broader policy objectives. We on these benches will be interested to hear the response of the Cabinet Secretary.

Photo of Nick Ramsay Nick Ramsay Conservative 4:38, 28 March 2017

I’m all for creativity, but there’s a difference between creativity and destabilisation. I think that whilst the devolution of taxation does allow this Assembly and Welsh Government to do things differently here, and over time we would expect that to happen, if you’re following the maxim that in the first instance the system and the regime here should mirror as closely as possible that across the border to ensure stability and a smooth transition, then I think it would be unwise to make this type of change at this point in time. Steffan Lewis, you wish to give local authorities that ability to make representations. Of course, local authorities can make representations to the Welsh Government. I think they probably make many representations to Welsh Government that it often doesn’t want to hear. So, they have that ability at the moment. I’m not entirely clear what the full reason is behind this. I must say I’m a little bit uneasy when you say that there may be local conditions in any local authority area that would see the need to specifically vary the upper rates of this charge. You weren’t entirely clear about that in our contribution. As things stand at the moment, I’m afraid to say we’re not able to support this, but I look forward to hearing what the Cabinet Secretary has to say in response.

Photo of Gareth Bennett Gareth Bennett UKIP 4:40, 28 March 2017

I take on board Nick Ramsay’s reservations that he expressed. However, UKIP does support the Plaid Cymru amendment allowing local authorities to make representations to the Welsh Government regarding tax bands and tax rates. We believe that, in general, powers should be devolved to the lowest possible level of Government. This is backing the principle of localism, and we stated this policy in broad terms in our Welsh Assembly manifesto last year. Therefore, we do support this amendment.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. At Stage 2 in front of the Finance Committee, there was a discussion of an amendment tabled by Steffan Lewis that would have enabled local authorities to make representations about the higher rate of tax. I’m grateful for subsequent opportunities to discuss this matter with the Member, because I have no difficulty with the general principle that we need to engage with local authorities on the impact of higher rates on communities, and that that impact could include a discussion about rates and bands. But as Nick Ramsay has said already, local authorities are able to express their views on any aspect of this Bill at any time under existing local government legislation. A local authority does not need to be given the power in this Bill to make representations; they have that power now.

There are a number of practical difficulties with the amendment as well, as presented this afternoon, which means I cannot ask Government supporters to vote for it. Firstly, I’m advised that an amendment that states that the local authority may make representation about rates and bands might actually cast doubt on whether others can make such representations, or whether a local authority can make representations about other matters, such as the operation of the tax more generally.

Secondly, there are concerns that this amendment would, in effect, introduce a statutory process that must be followed before rates and bands are varied. This would be unprecedented in UK tax terms, and would undermine the principle that decisions about rates and bands must rest with the Government and the National Assembly.

Llywydd, with all that said, let me underline my support for the basic intention behind amendment 30. In order to ensure that local authorities are alert to the opportunity they already have to express views on the operation of the higher rates in their area, including discussion on rates and bands, I will write to local authorities following the May elections of this year to draw their attention to the commitment I have made today to engage with them on the operation of the higher rates in their communities. That engagement needs to be properly informed by evidence. When the tax goes live, the WRA will collect and hold the relevant data. I can confirm this afternoon that the WRA will analyse land transaction tax data in relation to the higher rate on a local authority basis. This analysis will be used to inform discussions with local authorities on the impact of the higher rates in their areas. More broadly, that evidence will also support a wider look at the impact of the higher rates on communities, once the land transaction tax is in operation. I intend to publish my tax work plan for the next 12 months in the late spring, alongside writing to local authorities, so that these actions can complement one another.

Llywydd, while I’m unable to support amendment 30, I hope I’ve said enough on the record this afternoon to demonstrate that this is a matter on which local authorities can make representations, that we will ensure that their ability to do so is drawn actively to their attention, and that work will be undertaken to ensure that any such representations receive an informed response from Government.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:44, 28 March 2017

(Translated)

I call on Steffan Lewis to reply to the debate.

Photo of Steffan Lewis Steffan Lewis Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you, Llywydd. I appreciate the fact that the Cabinet Secretary respects the spirit of the amendment. I think it is very clear that we intend to do as much as we can in terms of policy objectives and our new fiscal powers. Apologies to the Member for Monmouth that I wasn’t sufficiently clear in my opening remarks—I thought it was quite clear in terms of the intentions underpinning our amendment. We are very aware of the different circumstances across the counties of Wales and within the counties of Wales, in terms of higher-band properties and residential property.

With what the Cabinet Secretary has said, first of all, I very warmly welcome the fact that he will proactively inform local authorities in Wales of the possibilities and that the Government is open to having specific discussions on an issue that is very important to Plaid Cymru. Secondly, I think the pledge to ensure that the Government has a work plan on taxation, and that that will take this into account in terms of policy and within the fiscal context, is an important pledge and one that I welcome very much—and, of course, the fact that we will have real data in Wales for the first time on the impact of this tax.

Therefore, with the Assembly’s consent, and with your consent, Llywydd, I would like to withdraw my amendment.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:46, 28 March 2017

(Translated)

The Member has said that he is eager to withdraw amendment 30. If there’s no objection to that, the amendment is withdrawn.

(Translated)

Amendment 30 withdrawn in accordance with Standing Order 12. 27.