Item 5 on our agenda this afternoon is the debate on Children, Young People and Education Committee’s report on the inquiry into statutory advocacy provision, and I call on Lynne Neagle to move the motion. Lynne.

Motion NDM6275 Lynne Neagle

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the Children, Young People and Education Committee Report on the Inquiry into Statutory Advocacy Provision which was laid in the Table Office on 2 February 2017.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Between 2003 and 2014, there have been no fewer than seven reports expressing concerns about the state of advocacy services in Wales. The Children and Young People Committee of the third Assembly published three reports and made a range of recommendations and repeated calls about the provision of advocacy services for looked-after children and other vulnerable groups of children. Between 2012 and 2014, the then children’s commissioner also published three reports with recommendations on statutory advocacy provision. I think it is also sobering to remind ourselves where this advocacy journey we are on actually began, as it almost coincides with the birth of this institution and the publication of the Waterhouse report, ‘Lost in Care’, back in February 2000.

That report, 17 years ago, found that victims of decades of widespread sexual and physical abuse of children in north Wales care homes had not been believed or listened to. It recommended that all looked-after children should have access to an independent advocate. It is, therefore, high time Welsh Government and local authorities in Wales put this issue to bed once and for all.

I think it is important today to remind ourselves why independent advocacy services matter. Simply put, advocacy gives a voice to our most vulnerable children and helps keep them safe. The National Youth Advocacy Service Cymru told our committee that independent advocacy is fundamentally a provision to safeguard and protect the most vulnerable children and young people in Wales. This was a message emphasised by the children’s commissioner who told us clearly that advocacy services are not an optional extra—they are absolutely necessary safeguards for our most vulnerable children. She also reminded our committee that, from Waterhouse and other inquiries to the events that have occurred more recently in Rotherham, children’s voices have not been listened to and have been overshadowed when they have been at their most vulnerable.

There are around 25,000 children who would be eligible for support in Wales. In 2016, 2,936 were on the child protection register, 5,554 were looked-after children, excluding those on the child protection register, and 15,884 were classed as children in need. The committee recognises that progress has been made. I welcome that the existing statutory duty to provide advocacy to looked-after children and other relevant groups was restated in the recent Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014. But much more needs to be done to make sure that this is translated into a reality in the lives of our most vulnerable children.

Much of the committee’s inquiry is focused on the need to implement a consistent national approach to advocacy in line with recommendations set out in the reports published by the children’s commissioner—work that began four years ago. Although we recognise that there’s been progress in recent months in this area, the committee now wants to see urgent progress made in delivering this national approach. The committee made eight clear recommendations, which, if implemented appropriately, would go some considerable way to alleviating the problems identified by the multiple reports over the years.

I am pleased to see that the Cabinet Secretary has listened to the committee and responded positively to most of the recommendations we have made. The commitment by Welsh Government to deliver a national approach for statutory advocacy provision is one that is very much welcomed by the committee and across the sector. I cannot stress enough, though, that this needs to be a meaningful and successful transition to a national approach and not one that falls short of expectations. Clear arrangements need to be in place to ensure this approach is implemented, co-ordinated and monitored on an ongoing basis.

Achieving the national approach by June 2017 will be an important milestone, but fully delivering the approach beyond this date will be the measure of success. I know that key stakeholders have valid concerns about the sustainability of the model, especially once the implementation manager finishes post in June and in the absence of a stakeholder advisory group.

I am pleased that Welsh Government has at least accepted in principle the recommendation to provide a detailed update on the move towards a national approach in June. But I would ask the Cabinet Secretary to fully sign up to this and to come back to the committee later in the year to discuss the progress we hope will have been made.

This committee does not intend this report to sit on a shelf. And we plan to monitor progress on the national approach vigorously. It was disappointing to note Welsh Government rejected our recommendation calling for annual monitoring of local authority spending on advocacy services and funding based on population needs. We feel it is imperative that these essential services are funded on the basis of need. That funding, in two years, will go into the rate support grant to be monitored by regional partnership boards, and there are very real concerns, especially in the climate of such pressure on social services, as to how this funding will be monitored and reflect the growing needs of the looked-after, child protection and children in need population.

Before I conclude these opening remarks, I want to thank everyone who gave evidence to our inquiry. I want to place on record special thanks to the All Wales Children and Young People’s Advocacy Providers Group, which is made up of organisations who I know have campaigned tirelessly on this issue for years. Our thanks also to the children’s commissioner and her team for their persistence and commitment on this issue, without which I do not believe we would have made the progress we have to date.

In closing, I want to emphasise to Members that this is an issue that will not go away. Successive Governments and local authorities have so far failed to adopt a model that has met the needs of our most vulnerable young people. We want to see a clear commitment from Welsh Government to end this cycle of reports being published without a great deal of progress being made. This needs to be something we get right. The safety of our most vulnerable children depends on it.

I am grateful for the opportunity this afternoon to speak on the Children, Young People and Education Committee’s report of the inquiry into statutory advocacy provision. May I begin by saying that Welsh Conservatives fully support the findings and recommendations contained in this report? This Assembly has a proud record of supporting the rights of children. I believe our report marks another milestone on the road of taking the rights of children and young people seriously. This measure emphasises our resolve to take the rights of children and young people seriously.

Our report intends to strengthen and enhance the advocacy rights of children and young people in Wales. This is in line with the statutory duty of local authorities to provide advocacy services. In the past, children’s commissioners, together with this committee’s predecessor, made a series of recommendations designed to strengthen statutory advocacy services in Wales. In response, the Welsh Government began work in 2013 to deliver a national approach to statutory advocacy services. Proposals for this national approach were due to be brought forward by the end of 2015. During the evidence sessions for this inquiry, some stakeholders expressed concerns about the lack of progress being made in delivering this national approach. No confirmation had been received that local authorities would implement this national approach in spite of work being done since 2013. Many stakeholders found this delay, some 16 years since the publications of the Waterhouse report, as unacceptable and frustrating. It is pleasing to note, therefore, that our committee’s proceedings appear to provide some impetus as progress in delivering the national approach was made during our deliberations. The committee made eight recommendations, of which six have been accepted by the Welsh Government, with another accepted in principle. So, could I ask the Cabinet Secretary to confirm that the national approach is on track to be in place by June this year and that all local authorities are fully committed to its adaptation and implementation?

It is essential that local authorities are monitored to ensure the national approach is fully implemented within timescales. Could the Cabinet Secretary provide more details on what monitoring arrangements will be in place to ensure local authorities comply with the requirements placed on them? How will progress on delivery be reported to local authorities, stakeholders and to the National Assembly? One point that did emerge during our proceedings was that there was a huge variation in the amount of money that local authorities were spending on their statutory advocacy duty. Could the Cabinet Secretary advise how he intends to tackle this variation and whether any new funding will be made available to meet the obligations of providing advocacy services?

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, specific groups of children have particular needs when it comes to statutory advocacy—these include children with mental health issues and with additional learning needs, and the children of asylum seekers. Will the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the specific needs of children such as these will be addressed in the national approach?

Deputy Presiding Officer, I welcome this report, which keeps Wales at the forefront of promoting and protecting the rights of children in Wales. Thank you.

Local authorities have a statutory duty, of course, to provide advocacy services to specific groups of children, and as we heard from the committee Chair, it’s not an optional extra. But, unfortunately, the voices of those children haven’t been heard as they should have been when they have been most vulnerable. We also heard a reference to a series of reports, and an even lengthier series of recommendations that have been made over the years by various reports and children’s commissioners and so on since the Waterhouse report back in the year 2000.

Despite that, of course, although there have been developments over the past few months, we are still waiting for the national approach to be agreed and to be implemented. That is exceptionally disappointing—we should all admit that. In the meantime, of course, as the children’s commissioner has reminded us in the committee, children have been reporting to her office over a number of years that not all of them know what advocacy is, that they don’t know how to access advocacy, and that they are not reminded at the right times that they have a right to an advocate.

Then, of course, during our inquiry, we heard, as a committee, about the recent progress that’s been made in terms of agreeing the national approach that would be fully implemented by June of this year. In his evidence, the Cabinet Secretary told us that it was the ethical thing to do and financially right, and we would agree with that 100 per cent. Both of those points—the moral case of ensuring that children and young people are aware of their rights to advocacy, and the benefit in terms of their well-being, as well as the financial savings in the long term—remind me just how important it will be to ensure the strongest possible duties in terms of advocacy in the Additional Learning Needs and Educational Tribunal (Wales) Bill, and I’m sure we will have that debate as that Bill goes through the various stages in this Parliament.

Now, there are questions about funding, I think, that remain, because evidence to the committee from local authorities, I have to say, wasn’t particularly emphatic. Clearly, the Government is playing its part by contributing half of the anticipated cost of the national approach, but there was an admission that, ultimately, resources will have an impact on what advocacy services will be available and which services will be commissioned. Local authorities said that the current financial climate means that we have to be realistic about the expectations placed on local authorities, without additional funds being provided. Of course, there is a huge divergence in the level of funding across local authorities in Wales when it comes to expenditure on that statutory responsibility. So, the journey for some local authorities to get to where they should be, and where many of us would like to see them getting to, is going to be extremely challenging, I’m sure.

Now, the Cabinet Secretary has said that there will be no ring-fencing for the funding, and I understand the rationale behind that. But, of course, we have done some work in the committee looking at the education improvement grant, and the implications of not being able to identify with any certainty that the funding is reaching its intended point—also in terms of our inquiry into youth services, and notional sums being allocated in the RSG. But, of course, if you look at what actually reaches those services ultimately, it’s nowhere near, in many examples, to what it should be. So, if there is no ring-fencing—and I know that the Cabinet Secretary will be more than aware of this—we will need strong performance frameworks in place to ensure that what we want to see is delivered.

Fe bwysodd Plaid Cymru, wrth gwrs, am gryfhau eiriolaeth annibynnol yn y Ddeddf gwasanaethau cymdeithasol ar gyfer pob oedran. O ganlyniad i hynny, o leiaf yn awr nid yw awdurdodau lleol yn mynd i allu codi tâl am y gwasanaethau hyn. Nid oes gennyf syniad pam y credai unrhyw un yn y Llywodraeth y byddai’n dderbyniol yn y lle cyntaf i ganiatáu codi tâl am eiriolaeth.

Ond mae’n amlwg fod angen gwneud llawer mwy eto, ac mae’r argymhellion hyn gan y pwyllgor yn eithaf cymedrol yn fy marn i, ond maent yn gamau ymarferol iawn sydd angen eu cymryd. Felly, rwy’n siomedig fod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi dewis gwrthod argymhelliad 4, sydd ond yn gofyn i Lywodraeth Cymru fonitro gwariant gan awdurdodau lleol ar wasanaethau eiriolaeth a’i fod yn cael ei ariannu’n unol â dadansoddiad o’r asesiad o anghenion y boblogaeth. Beth sy’n bod ar fonitro lefelau gwario? Pan fyddwn yn sôn am eiriolaeth i blant yr hyn y siaradwn amdano mewn gwirionedd, wrth gwrs, yw darparu cymorth ar gyfer y bobl fwyaf agored i niwed mewn cymdeithas. Mae’n bosibl fod llawer o’r plant, wrth gwrs, yn derbyn gofal ac efallai eu bod eisoes wedi profi esgeulustod ac mae gennym ddyletswydd, fel rhieni corfforaethol, nad ydym yn ei chyflawni fel y dylem ar hyn o bryd. Felly, mae angen i’r Llywodraeth fod yn gryf yma. Mae angen i awdurdodau lleol gamu ymlaen a chyflawni, a bydd y pwyllgor, wrth gwrs, fel y mae’r Cadeirydd wedi ailadrodd, yn parhau i graffu ar y maes hyd nes y darperir y gwasanaeth y mae ein plant mwyaf agored i niwed yn ei haeddu, a’i angen yn wir.

Thank you very much. Finally, Julie Morgan.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m very pleased to speak in this debate about the committee’s report. Previous speakers have stressed how important it is that we have a fully developed advocacy scheme that covers the whole of Wales and that covers every local authority because it is the most vulnerable children who need it. We are letting them down if we don’t actually deliver this. I suppose, really, the main message from the committee is to get on with it. We heard a lot about the preparations that have been made, the discussions that had been had and commitments that had been given, but now I think it’s just got to be delivered because we owe it to the children of Wales. I know that during the course of the committee the Minister Carl Sargeant did give his personal commitment to seeing this through.

I was reminded of the vulnerability of children when I had a short debate very recently on the alleged abuse in the 1950s in the Llandrindod Wells schools for the deaf because research by my constituent, Cedric Moon, revealed that young deaf boys had been abused by a housemaster. But this abuse was never brought to the attention of the schools’ authorities until one of the boys, who had some speech, was abused and he then let the authorities know. The other boys had been unable to communicate what was happening to them and, of course, there were no advocates. To me that is an absolute prime example of where you needed an advocate to speak up for those vulnerable young boys. They couldn’t speak and there was no-one to speak for them. I’m pleased, as a result of the publicity for that debate, that there is now an inquiry going on into what happened, but it does illustrate how urgently we need advocacy.

I think there are particular groups of children who do specifically need advocacy. During the course of our report, the children’s commissioner highlighted those, and other people have referred to them today. But I do think there are very big issues with children who are in care, children who have mental health problems and, I think particularly as well, children with communication problems. The National Deaf Children’s Society gave evidence to the committee. They suggested the Welsh Government should issue minimum standards for advocacy services that take into account the distinct needs of deaf children and young people: the very children who cannot take part in debate and discussion. There were recommendations that they made about a basic level of deaf awareness and an understanding of the barriers deaf children and young people encounter. They did consult with deaf children on what was needed. They sent a list of the sorts of things that young people said they wanted:

My dream advocate is going to be nice, not interfering how I present my work, helpful, one of my best friend’ and ‘trust’, ‘young’, ‘to make you confident’, and ‘I want to be involved’. Many of the young people also said that they would like to be able to communicate with an advocacy service that could be done through text, e-mail or other social media, and also talked of the need for an interpreter for those who use sign language.

Obviously, a lot of progress has been made and I hope we’re nearly there. I think the committee report is giving an impetus for, we hope, the very last stage. But, obviously, there are still some concerns. The All Wales Children and Young People’s Advocacy Providers Group, who’ve given evidence to the committee and who have worked closely with us, have stressed the importance of external monitoring. They feel that a stakeholder advisory group should be re-established, so that work can be done with people who are actually working in the field. What I feel very strongly about is that as this is rolled out there should be engagement with young people as part of the implementation plan, because we are committed to children’s rights in this Assembly and I think it’s absolutely essential that young people are drawn into the debate and drawn into the discussion about how this is actually implemented. So, I hope this report will give the final stimulus to make this happen.

Thank you. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome the report and thank the committee for the inquiry. It has undoubtedly helped move the approach forward. During the inquiry, the committee heard from providers and the Children’s Commissioner for Wales on the importance of advocacy and I echo their sentiments.

Our young children and young people, particularly those who are most vulnerable, must feel able to express themselves and be heard. I’ve heard and listened carefully to the comments made by Members today.

The approach will improve the provision of advocacy services and meet the requirements of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. I remain dedicated to securing a securing a sustainable approach to advocacy and the Welsh Government’s commitment to this has never faltered. We’ve always sought to drive progress in the face of delay. Let’s remember that the focus is about ensuring children across Wales get a consistent service. The Welsh Government has fully backed this from the outset.

Advocacy is not a new provision for local authorities—it has been a statutory duty—but I do recognise the active offer is a new requirement. That is why I’m committed to providing additional funding to meet the full cost of the active offer. The Welsh Government recognises the need to support this approach and funded a secondment dedicated to developing a robust business case, but since the plan was agreed, we’ve continued with this funding by funding an implementation manager, which was referenced during these discussions, to co-ordinate progress and ensure the national service timetable is delivered.

Dirprwy Lywydd, if I can turn to the report now. The report contained eight recommendations for Welsh Government. We accept six in full, accept another in principle and reject one for reasons that I will set out later.

I can confirm, since the inquiry, the implementation plan has progressed well. In December, I received written confirmation from the WLGA that national support had been gained by all 22 leaders. The Welsh Government will also take forward its commitment in the plan. At the end of the month, we will commence a 12-week consultation on the national independent advocacy standards and outcomes framework, and we will update the code of practice on advocacy to take account of the national approach. A technical group will be established this spring to advise on the changes to the code, which I intend to lay before the Assembly in the winter.

I listened carefully to the contribution by Julie Morgan with regard to a stakeholder advisory panel. While I won’t reference them today, I will give that further consideration in my broader aspects of deliberation. The Welsh Government has also recognised that when the approach is implemented we need to consider the wider provision of advocacy services, including Meic, and how they align. We must ensure that all advocacy services are accessible and avoid confusion for children and young people about what is available for them.

Turning to the two recommendations that the Welsh Government could not accept in full. Recommendation 8 that an independent review of progress took place at the end of the first year of implementation: I accepted this in principle because reporting on progress is crucial to the future development, however I can’t accept it in full as the implementation plan has to be developed by the Association of Directors of Social Services in Wales. It’s they who will report to the Welsh Government through the senior leadership group and, at that point, I will update the committee. So, it’s just a process issue that was preventing us from fully supporting that recommendation.

I rejected recommendation 4, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I have agreed to provide up to £550,000 to the regions through a regional grant, which will include terms and conditions to enable the Welsh Government to monitor expenditure for the early stage of implementation. The funding will then be placed into the revenue support grant and monitoring will be through the annual report of the regional partnership boards. I often hear discussions in this Chamber about the amount of grants that we send out and how some should be pushed into the RSG and some shouldn’t, and there’s debate around all of that. I want to be confident that, before we release this into the RSG, we do have a good service. And I will consider that whole aspect of this in terms of the comments made around a stakeholder advisory group. I genuinely want to have, like you, a good service for our young people. I hope that, in both cases, Members will recognise that this question of the precise means of achieving our shared goal of implementation and monitoring, and our commitment to those, is quite clear.

I thank the committee for highlighting the challenges of implementing the national approach. The evidence presented to the committee and its report will provide a solid basis for ensuring the implementation of the national approach going forward. This inquiry has positively reinforced the shared commitment of this Welsh Government and all its partners in providing statutory advocacy for children and young people. This is an evolving approach, which will be successful with everybody’s commitment. We must allow time for it to embed and be implemented properly so that the service offered to children meets the standards we expect for those children who need it.

I’m confident that, through the national approach, there will be consistency of access to advocacy that will improve the experiences of children and young people in care, and promote positive outcomes for them. Finally, we are in regular dialogue with local government about the approach, and I will maintain personal oversight of the progress. But I am assured that the national approach will be in place by 27 June, which I know Mohammad Asghar was asking about in his contribution.

Dirprwy Lywydd, it’s been an interesting discussion, but at the back of all of these deliberations, it’s about children and young people and we must have our eye on making sure that we create the right environment and the right services for them, for which I’m very grateful for the report from the committee.

Thank you very much. I now call on the Chair of the committee, Lynne Neagle, to reply to the debate.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the members of the committee who’ve spoken this afternoon, and the Minister and all the members of the committee who contributed to the inquiry?

Mohammad Asghar, in his contribution, referred to the good record of this Assembly in promoting the rights of the child, which, of course, I’m sure we would all agree to, but I do think that we do need to do a bit of soul searching—all of us—as to how, in an institution that is supposedly committed to the rights of the child, we are now so many years on from having actually cracked this issue. So, I think that is an issue for all of us to reflect on, including the Welsh Government.

Llyr Gruffydd made an important contribution on the importance of advocacy. I particularly welcome the references he made to the importance of the active offer. Clearly, it is absolutely essential that we don’t just have advocacy services there that children aren’t aware of. These are vulnerable children and these services need to be promoted to them so that they can access them. That is a feature of this new national model that is going to be very, very important.

Llyr also referred to the likely inclusion of advocacy in the ALN Bill; clearly, that is something that the committee is also looking at. I’m sure we would all want to see robust advocacy available, but we also must be mindful of the challenges that there’ve been in delivering this, as we look to take this forward into other areas. I would personally very much like to see advocacy made available to children in other settings, including ALN, but also in the important area of mental health. Llyr also raised concerns about the funding issues and, in particular, the rejection of recommendation 4, which I’ll return to when I come to the Minister’s response.

Can I thank Julie Morgan for her contribution this afternoon? I wholeheartedly agree with her that we do just now have to get on with this and make some progress. She made a very important contribution on the particular needs of deaf children and I would like to thank her for her ongoing work in that area, because if children are vulnerable anyway, they are even more vulnerable if they cannot even communicate in the most basic ways. The report does make reference to deaf children and I hope that that is something that the Welsh Government will look very carefully at, going forward. Can I thank Julie also for her reference to the need for a stakeholder advisory group, which I think is absolutely essential, going forward?

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his response today? I do recognise his personal commitment to getting this issue right, which I hope we will now be able to translate into actually cracking this issue. I’m very pleased that the consultation will start now at the end of March on the advocacy standards. I think that is very welcome and I also very much welcome the indication you gave to Julie Morgan just now that you are very willing to look at the formation of a stakeholder advisory panel. The Minister also referred to the importance of Meic, which is also included in our report, and I think we need to be very mindful that having those kinds of universal services available to all children and young people is a very important gateway into the advocacy for the children who may be most in need and in danger. We welcome, again, the fact that the Government has accepted most of our recommendations. The Minister made particular reference this afternoon to those that have not been accepted in full, or rejected. If I can just say, in relation to recommendation 8, accepting it in principle is a step forward, and I note your comments about the need for local government to take this forward. But I think what we would want to avoid at all costs is a situation where there is a continued batting back and fore between local government and the Welsh Government. At the end of the day, the buck stops here in terms of delivery of this, and I think that’s what the committee were trying to reflect in our recommendation.

Just finally, on recommendation 4, the extra funding is very welcome that the Minster has referred to, but Llyr and other Members have referred to the fact that there are real concerns that, when local government is so strapped for cash, that money could end up going elsewhere when it’s in the RSG. So, I do hope that the Government will be able to look again at the issue of independent monitoring so we can be absolutely certain that that money is going where it is intended to.

So, just in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer, can I thank everyone again for the opportunity to speak on this important subject this afternoon? I really hope that this will be the last time that we will have to stand here discussing the need for a proper national advocacy offer for children and young people. That would mark real progress, and I hope now that we can go forward and get on with that, and actually deliver that service that we all want to see for our children and young people. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee’s report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.