6. When will the First Minister meet with the First Ministers of the UK’s other devolved governments to discuss their relationship with the EU? OAQ(5)0580(FM)[W]

Well, of course, there is business to be discussed before 8 June, which has interfered at the moment, but I do discuss EU issues in bilateral meetings—trilateral meetings, I hope—with the First Ministers of Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

Wouldn’t the First Minister agree that these tripartite discussions are more important than ever, given what’s contained within this White Paper with a sky-blue cover on exiting the European Union, produced by the UK Government, which mentions the situation post Brexit that the powers that the EU currently has in terms of common frameworks will return to the UK, allowing the rules to be set there by democratically elected Members? What’s happening to us in this place? How are our views in the devolved administrations to be part of those discussions?

Wel, fy marn i yw hwn: dylai’r pwerau hynny ddod i bobl Cymru ac nid eistedd yn San Steffan nac yn Whitehall. Mae’n hollbwysig i gael fframweithiau mewn rhai rhannau sef pysgodfeydd, er enghraifft, ond dylai’r fframweithiau hynny gael eu cytuno, ac nid cael eu rhoi ar bobl heb eu bod nhw’n cytuno. Rhaid cofio, os ydym ni’n mynd i gael marchnad sengl tu fewn i’r Deyrnas Unedig—ac rydw i’n cyd-fynd â hynny—mae’n rhaid cael rheolau. Os nad ydym yn berchen y rheolau, nid ydym yn mynd i gymryd sylw ohonyn nhw. Ac yn ail, wrth gwrs, os oes rheolau, pwy sy’n mynd i blismona’r rheolau hynny heb fod yna lys yn gwneud hynny? So mae yna lawer o gwestiynau sydd heb eu hateb ar hyn o bryd. Mae rhai yn Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn meddwl bod pethau yn mynd i symud yn ôl i fel roedden nhw yn 1972, ond nid felly yw’r Deyrnas Unedig dim rhagor. Nid gwlad gydag un Llywodraeth yw’r Deyrnas Unedig dim rhagor ac mae lot fawr o waith i’w wneud er mwyn sicrhau bod y pwerau hyn yn dod i gael eu trosglwyddo o Frwsel i Gymru ac nid mynd drwy Lundain.

When the external affairs committee visited Brussels last year, we met with the Canadian trade delegation and I was struck by the role of the Canadian provinces in the negotiation and the approval of the CETA deal with the European Union. We also know, of course, since then, of the role of the Wallonian Parliament in approving the deal. Trade negotiations with the EU and, indeed, beyond are going to become increasingly important for Wales and the UK, and they’re about much more than foreign affairs and the Crown prerogative; they’re about the bread-and-butter issues of daily economic life. So, does he agree with me that future trade negotiations, both with the EU and beyond, should include a voice for Wales and the other devolved administrations in the negotiation and approval of those agreements that are so fundamental to our economic well-being?

Yes, I do. Even though trade, of course, per se, is not devolved, it’s hugely important that we have a strong voice, because we may be called on to implement the results of any trade agreement, even though we might virulently oppose any particular part of a trade agreement. That is hugely important. So, for example, if there were to be a free trade agreement with New Zealand or Australia, that would have a massive impact on our farmers. Even though that’s not devolved, I’m sure nobody would argue rationally that somehow we have no locus in putting forward a view in that regard. We heard voices from Australia over the last few weeks saying that it was not possible to have a free trade agreement with Australia and protect the interests of Welsh hill farmers. Well, that I know, because if we have a free trade agreement in terms of agriculture, then, for many of our Welsh hill farmers, they will have no future. It is hugely important that the Welsh Government and this Assembly are able to express a very strong view and influence, and reject, actually, parts of trade agreements that will have a hugely adverse impact on our own farmers.

The issue raised by the Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd is crucial, and it’s been identified for several months now that the future governance of the UK’s internal market will give an indication of the future of the constitution of this country. So, can I ask the First Minister what progress he has made in terms of persuading his counterparts in Scotland and Northern Ireland to agree that the future UK internal market should be governed jointly by the nations of the UK, and should not be imposed upon us by Whitehall?

There are differing views amongst the Governments. The view in Scotland is, basically, ‘Independence will resolve the issue.’ The view in Northern Ireland is mixed. Certainly, I’ve heard the former First Minister of Northern Ireland say there shouldn’t be any state aid rules at all. Now, we have to come to a position, which I think is perfectly reasonable, where we all say where powers are transferred back from Brussels, they come to the devolved administrations. I see no reason why that can’t be agreed—the First Minister of Scotland is in agreement with me on that, so we’re in the same position. My view is, and I’ve not heard a voice dissenting from this, that if we are to have an internal single market, the rules have to be agreed and they have to be policed by an independent adjudication body, not by the UK Government. How can the UK Government police it anyway? If we decide to ignore them, there’s nothing they can do. Now, that’s in nobody’s interests. We have to have a clear system. We have to have faith in a system that is seen as genuinely independent—not as we have now in the JMC dispute resolution process where, if there is a dispute between ourselves and the UK Treasury, ultimately it is resolved by the UK Treasury. Those days have to go. This can be done perfectly sensibly and perfectly properly in order to safeguard the interests of Wales.