The next item on our agenda is the debate by individual Members, under Standing Order 11.21(iv), on the devolution of policing. I call on Steffan Lewis to move the motion.

Motion NDM6288 Mike Hedges, Steffan Lewis, Julie Morgan, Sian Gwenllian

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that policing is a devolved matter in Scotland and in Northern Ireland.

2. Calls for the devolution of policing to Wales.

3. Believes that specialist policing matters such as counter-terrorism are best co-ordinated at a UK level.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m pleased to move the motion today with colleagues Mike Hedges, Sian Gwenllian and Julie Morgan. Our motion is in three parts: firstly, noting that policing is devolved to the other two devolved nations of the UK; secondly, calling for the devolution to Wales of policing—the only nation where it is not devolved; and thirdly, expressing the view that certain specialist areas of policing are best co-ordinated at a UK level.

The anomaly of Wales is, of course, further confused by the fact that, with the election of their first metropolitan mayor, powers over policing have now been devolved to Manchester, yet the devolution of policing to Wales remains frustratingly stalled. Despite wide-reaching consensus in this Senedd, Westminster has no plans to transfer powers over policing to Wales. It was disappointing not to see its inclusion in either the 2014 or the 2017 Wales Acts, despite it being a recommendation of the cross-party Silk commission all those years ago. Two legislative opportunities to act have been and gone and no progress has been made.

This is not just a point, though, of constitutional principle. It makes perfect sense for decisions about all our emergency services to be made at the national level. Currently policing is the only emergency service not to be devolved, yet modern policing involves considerable overlap between public services and other devolved areas of responsibility. The police, of course, already have to work closely alongside colleagues in health and education. While our public services often work very well together, there is evidence that co-operation could be improved even further if powers to make the strategic decisions were held here in this country.

Today’s cross-party motion sets out a sensible approach to the devolution of policing. For most people, what matters, of course, is the police services that they are most likely to come into contact with day to day. What people want is community policing, not just that traditional idea of the bobby on the beat, but a police service that is equipped with local intelligence and the ability to respond to the needs of the communities that they represent. The budget for community policing is no longer ring-fenced and, although forces must guarantee a minimum level of neighbourhood policing, how this is actually delivered varies hugely from force to force. Where once each ward had a ward officer responsible for building relationships with communities and growing trust in the local area, I think many people feel as though that connection is being lost and, with it, effective intelligence-led community policing.

The most recent ‘State of Policing’ report by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary highlights their concern that neighbourhood policing is being eroded. But with police forces experiencing Government funding cuts of 22 per cent, on average, between 2010 and 2015, and many still seeing their operational budgets continue to shrink, forces have had to respond by cutting workforces. HMIC’s report found that some forces have struggled to respond to reductions in the level of resources available to them. Poorly planned, short-term reactions to immediate budget pressures are putting vulnerable people at serious risk of harm in some forces, and a large number of crimes are being effectively written off rather than finding a satisfactory conclusion for the victim and the community.

From a policy perspective, devolution of policing to Wales would provide the ability to prioritise community policing and embed that principle across the entire devolved Welsh public sector. There would be a financial benefit, too, to meet that policy aspiration. By Plaid Cymru’s calculations, if Wales were treated as a policing entity with parity with the other devolved countries, Welsh police forces would be more than £25 million a year better off, as Barnett would apply. If the Barnett formula was used to fund our forces in line with population, it would result in a significant increase in their budgets.

As noted in the motion, there are elements of specialist policing, such as counter-terrorism, where UK-wide co-ordination makes perfect sense. On these matters, where there is often an international element, it is usually state-wide bodies that lead and co-ordinate, especially when these relate to the work of the security and intelligence services. One can think of the Federal Bureau of Investigations in the United States or the Bundespolizei in Germany, for example. With any emergency service, there’s always a need to ensure collaboration across national borders, of course. Indeed, that is already the case with the ambulance service and the fire and rescue services between Wales and England.

In terms of policing, mutual aid has existed for a considerable time and would, of course, apply if and when policing were devolved to Wales. In these islands, mutual assistance is enshrined in relations between the different jurisdictions already. In Ireland, where there is, in effect, an international frontier, the Criminal Jurisdiction Act 1975 in Northern Ireland and the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act 1976 in the Republic allow for each jurisdiction the ability to treat and deal with a specific range of offences committed in the other’s jurisdiction as if it had occurred in their own.

To conclude, Llywydd, devolution of policing is desirable from a policy and co-ordination perspective in terms of restoring community policing and greater collaboration across public services. Devolution of policing is in Wales’s financial interests, where a devolution dividend would allow us to invest more in making our communities safer. Devolution of policing is operationally sound, as almost any other state in the world proves, and is evident already in the different policing jurisdictions in these islands. An affirmative vote from this Assembly today will provide a clear demand to the next UK Government to address this unnecessary anomaly.

As this motion states, specialist policing matters such as counter-terrorism are best co-ordinated at a UK level.’

However, its call for the devolution of policing for Wales defies reality. Policing is a devolved matter in Scotland and Northern Ireland. For reasons of geography and history, the situation in Northern Ireland is entirely different. Prior to the introduction of direct rule in 1972, the old Stormont Parliament had responsibility for policing and justice in Northern Ireland, and successive UK Governments retained a commitment to re-devolve policing and justice when circumstances were right to do so. Forty-eight per cent of people in Wales live within 25 miles of the border with England, and 90 per cent within 50 miles. In contrast, only 5 per cent of the combined population of Scotland and England lives within 50 miles of the border between those countries. I’ll take one intervention.

I thank the Member for giving way. As I referred to in my contribution, there is a porous border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and the mutual assistance agreements have worked there, even at times when policing hasn’t been devolved to Northern Ireland. So, would he at least recognise that porous borders, or any borders for that matter, are not a barrier for better, devolved community policing?

Unfortunately, Welsh Government since 1999 has had a record of building rather than removing barriers cross border. Most people in Wales live along the M4 and A55 corridors, separated by a vast rural area, and have very different policing requirements. Policing interdependence between north-east Wales and north-west England is illustrated by the fact that this is the only part of the UK with a connecting urban area divided by a national boundary. My own contacts, in both North Wales Police and North Wales Police Federation, have repeatedly told me that they have a closer affiliation with north-west England than the rest of Wales, and that there is a lack of competence in Welsh Government to handle the devolution of policing.

Rhun ap Iorwerth rose—

No time. They expressed concern to me this week that Welsh Government control of policing budgets would see funding filtered south, and stated they would like to know whether there is a desire in Welsh Government to merge the police forces in Wales—a proposal that was killed several years ago. As they stated, the geography and current calibrations with various English forces makes the concept of an all Wales Police Force very difficult’—

Rhun ap Iorwerth rose—

Adding, to force such a move to satisfy the egos of certain Politicians should be carefully monitored’.

He’s not giving—. I don’t think the Member is giving way.

I’m quoting. In their January briefing to north Wales AMs and MPs, North Wales Police told us that their operational collaboration with the Merseyside and Cheshire forces was increasing in areas, including firearms, intelligence, custody, property and forensics. When the Assembly’s Social Justice and Regeneration Committee reviewed the structure of policing in 2005, our report noted that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries, and that cross-border partnerships must reflect operational reality. The work of the Assembly sub-committee considering the then-proposed Welsh police merger, of which I was a member, led to police mergers being aborted across England and Wales. As I said in the February 2006 debate on this, the police authorities told us that the additional all-Wales annual cost of re-organisation would be up to £57 million, with the chief constable stating that it would be even more. Our subsequent work confirmed that the chief constables were correct.

Will the Member take an intervention?

Although Labour’s general election campaign in Wales has stated that Labour’s 2017 manifesto—

Are you taking an intervention from the Cabinet Secretary?

It depends whether you’d allow me enough time at the end or not, if I give another intervention.

Why not? I’m in a good mood.

Thank you, Mark, for taking the intervention. I’m intrigued by your contribution, because I’ve received the letter of 5 September from all of the police constables in Wales, the all-Wales policing group, saying that, indeed, they agreed a joint statement that supports the devolution of policing to Wales. Where are you getting your information from, Mark?

I will not identify individuals because those individuals could be held to account by Ministers. The information I receive is accurate. It comes directly from the relevant persons, but I am not going to identify who those persons are. What they say in private is very different to what they’re prepared to say in public to the likes of you.

Although Labour’s general election campaign chairman in Wales has said that Labour’s 2017 manifesto will give Welsh Ministers a bigger role in policing, he also denied that Labour’s shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, had got her facts wrong when she said,

We don’t think it’s right, at this time, to devolve policing, but this is something there’s constant discussion about inside the Labour Party.’

In 2013, Labour’s shadow police Minister and former police Minister, David Hanson, warned that devolving control to the police would be a major step with many challenges, and that reducing crime was more important than deciding which Government manages the police. New figures from Cardiff University show the number of people injured in serious violence dropped by 10 per cent last year, and by 40 per cent since 2010. Policing has already been devolved to police and crime commissioners, empowering local communities to have their say on policing priorities and to hold an elected representative to account. The call for devolution of policing by Labour and the separatists is a blatant power grab, which would deliver the opposite of real devolution. This First Minister refers to the devolution of policing to Manchester as a model for Wales, but those are only the powers of police and crime commissioners, and we already have devolution to them in Wales. What he’s therefore actually talking about is taking yet more powers from the regions of Wales and centralising these in Cardiff, giving themselves power to hire and fire chief constables. Well, given Labour’s record of creeping and often intimidatory politicisation of devolved public services, this is a truly chilling proposition.

Julie Morgan.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me to speak in this cross-party debate. I’ve been very pleased to put my name to this motion. I think it is absolutely inexplicable that policing was not devolved in the most recent Wales Bill, and I think that is one of the major reasons why devolution is still unfinished business. I’m sure there will be a time when policing will be devolved, but, sadly, it wasn’t at this really good opportunity.

As Steffan Lewis said in his introduction, policing is devolved in Scotland and Northern Ireland, so why is Wales not fit to deliver policing? I can hear from Mark Isherwood’s contribution that he has such a low opinion of the ability of the Welsh people to deliver services in their own country that he believes that we can’t be trusted here with policing. I think that’s a bit of an indictment to say that sort of thing.

If you look at other parts of England, the London mayor was given a direct mandate for policing in 2011. The mayor has a major role, jointly with the Home Secretary, in appointing the Met police commissioner, scrutinises policing, and he sets the policing strategy in London. The London Assembly also has a role in scrutinising policing in London, in the same way as this Assembly could if policing was devolved. I think that that would make for a much better joined-up policy. And, of course, we most recently had the election of the metro mayors.

Manchester’s been mentioned several times, which has now power over policing. But, in Manchester, the UK Government has also agreed to give it more powers over criminal justice and offender management. Manchester will have greater involvement in future plans for local courts and in commissioning offender management services alongside the National Offender Management Service. I’m pleased that Manchester is having it, but why not Wales? Wales is a country, and we are not having these powers. So, I think it is inexplicable. We also know that there were seven—. We also know that there were six other elections for metro mayors, and another one to come. Over time, the powers of the metro mayors, I’m sure, will increase, as has happened in London. By contrast with Wales, the devolution Bill that set up the metro mayors is a deliberately non-prescriptive bit of legislation that allows for the devolution of almost anything—housing, health, welfare, policing, and more.

So, the big question is: what is wrong with Wales? It really seems that there is some block there at the centre that doesn’t recognise the sheer logic of devolving policing to Wales. There was no problem in transferring the power over the fire service in the first session of the Assembly, when I understand that it was offered to the Assembly; I don’t even believe that the Government here had to ask for it. And, obviously, the ambulance service is devolved as part of the health service. So, this means two out of the three emergency services are already devolved to Wales, so it makes nonsense not to devolve the third. The three services already work together to a great extent, but it would certainly make sense operationally to have the three services under the political control of the Welsh Government.

So, a major reason that we should have it: other places have the powers devolved. Second reason: we already have two out of the three emergency services devolved. And, of course, a major reason as well is the funding of the police in Wales, because they are funded by a mixture of Home Office funding, Welsh Government funding, and council tax funding. In its manifesto for the fourth Assembly, the Labour Party committed to fund 500 extra police community support officers. Of course, these have been hugely appreciated by the public during the last five years. Also, with our general election pledge now for this coming election, there will be an extra 853 police officers in Wales. Labour is committed to ensuring that the public feel safe on the streets and that police and PCSOs on a local level are key parts of the local community.

They are also very involved with people now who are vulnerable people. The actual crime policing that the police do is much less now than the community activities that they are involved with—working with older people, working with young people. Today, in the Children, Young People and Education Committee, we had evidence given to us by a person who was funded jointly by the police and jointly funded by public health. This is the way things are going—joint working together. Finally, I wanted to say that, if you look at an example, for example, of Welsh Government legislation, such as the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015, the partnership approach to tackling and preventing abuse, which—. Obviously, tackling domestic abuse is one of the biggest challenges that we have. It’s absolutely crucial that this is done in a partnership way, and there’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that this would be aided if the political responsibility for policing did lie with the Assembly.

Thanks to the individual Members for bringing today’s debate. I think devolution of policing is an important issue, and I should point out that it is an issue on which we in UKIP are thus far undecided. I do think that we need to be wary, though, before we embark on this step. I think that, if the Assembly calls for greater powers, for devolution over more things, then there have to be good reasons for it. I think it can’t just be because other parts of the UK have it, therefore we must have it. When we debated this subject in 2014, Ann Jones made the very pertinent point that, and I quote:

Simply saying that we want powers because Scotland has them is a very weak argument.’

End of quote. I think that still holds true today, and I think it does hold true even if we extend it to references to greater Manchester also, as we’ve had today. What are the actual practical benefits of devolving policing to this place? They are, at best, unclear. [Interruption.] Okay, Steffan, we’ve heard what you said. I was going to raise some of the points you made. You mentioned the argument of the other two emergency services are already devolved; Julie Morgan also made that point. Well, this point had been made before. In the last Assembly—[Interruption.] Okay, well, you are saying it’s right. I am addressing the point; please let me address it. We had in the last Assembly a Member called Byron Davies, who actually had 32 years’ operational experience in the Metropolitan Police. Now, when this issue was raised last time, in 2014, he said the only connection between the three emergency services is that they all have the same telephone number, 999. He was not convinced that devolution of policing was going to be effective.

The cost-saving argument that Steffan has advanced is speculative at best. Would we actually get the financial settlement for the police that he is suggesting? In fact, costs could well rise.

Would the Member take an intervention?

Yes, certainly.

Obviously, at the moment, the way Wales is funded is that we are not funded as an entity in our own right because we come under and England-and-Wales entity. But, if we became a policing entity, with devolved powers over policing, then we would become a devolved entity as far as policing is concerned, and the Barnett formula would apply. That means that our budgets would increase, based on the population; there would be more money, not less.

Okay. I was aware of the argument the first time that you put it. Thank you for putting it again. I’d be interested to hear what the Minister would have to say on that point. I’m sure he will take that on board.

Some fairly concrete—[Interruption.} Some fairly concrete disadvantages of police devolution have been aired in the past. Now, I was interested by the Minister Carl Sargeant’s intervention earlier regarding comments from chief constables. I would be very interested in hearing more on that, because, so far, from what I have read, many experienced officers have voiced concerns over the prospect of the devolution of policing. For instance, former Gwent Police Chief Constable Mick Giannasi has stated that the devolution of policing could pose ‘serious operational risks’ and, with under 7,000 officers, Welsh forces would be heavily reliant on English forces for support in many areas of crime-fighting.

The cost of creating “stand alone” resilience would be prohibitive’, he stated. These fears were echoed in 2016 by the Gwent police and crime commissioner, Ian Johnston, who warned that Wales could become the poor relation of UK policing. The Dyfed-Powys police and crime commissioner, Chris Salmon, said at that time that there is nothing that the Assembly can do—

Would the Member give way?

Yes, sure.

There is no doubt that there are practical matters that need working through, but, as Carl Sargeant has just made clear, the chief constables are now all of a view that these are surmountable and in the best interests of policing for this to be devolved so that it can be aligned with other local public services.

Yes, and as I stated, Lee, I am very interested to hear what he says about the chief constables and to elucidate on what he hinted, that the chief constables are in favour of this. My mind is not closed on this issue, but you must appreciate I have to raise the concerns so that we properly debate them.

Right. I mentioned Byron Davies. I’ll quote what he said in the last time—possibly the last time—we debated this, 2014:

During my time as a police officer, there were always many experts lining up with ideas and plans to reform policing. It was to some of us a source of annoyance that there were always people who knew better. It was often, if not always, the case that these people lacked some understanding of what policing and operational policing are really about and lacked practical knowledge of policing. I do not believe that policing should be devolved to Wales…. Cross-border crime, international crime and online crime make the case for the Welsh Government taking over from the Home Office very weak indeed.’

End of quote. We in UKIP Wales do not think the case for devolution of policing has yet been made. That is why it is our intention to abstain on today’s motion.

Despite what we’ve heard from one direction this afternoon, there is a general consensus in Wales that policing should be devolved to Wales, as has happened in Scotland, Northern Ireland, London and Manchester. I want to focus on two arguments why it makes sense to devolve to Wales.

Effective policing means an effective and close relationship with the devolved services in Wales, and devolving the police would reflect much better the circumstances that exist in Wales, and it would improve the essential dovetailing between the different emergency services and the public services. Ultimately, that would improve services, and, further still, it would improve the services in a way that would improve the quality of lives of people in Wales—something that, hopefully, everyone in this Chamber is eager to see happening.

Another argument that we haven’t heard yet this afternoon is that devolving police would also improve accountability. The Silk commission found that the current situation is unsatisfactory, noting that a great deal of the police funding comes from devolved sources, despite the fact that the strategic policies for policing issues are decided in Westminster. There’s a mismatch there. There is an acknowledgement that accountability is a problem, and that’s what lay behind the foundation of the police and crime commissioners. However, it could be argued that they should be got rid of if policing is devolved. I don’t want to go there this afternoon, but deciding how local accountability would happen is a matter for further discussion. But, certainly, this does give us an opportunity to think about new ways of strengthening the accountability that is very much needed.

So, in terms of improving that vital dovetailing between policing and public services, and to improve police accountability, it makes sense to devolve the police.

Those are just two arguments. You’ve heard other arguments this afternoon, and there are many other reasons and a great deal of debate to be had to create the case for the devolution of policing to Wales. Thank you very much to Steffan Lewis, Mike Hedges, and Julie Morgan for bringing this forward this afternoon. I very much hope that we will at least have a very respectable majority in favour of this motion. Thank you.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, Carl Sargeant.

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I welcome the opportunity to debate this important issue here today. Thank you for all that’s contributed in the Chamber. The Welsh Government has always been very clear that we want to see responsibility for policing devolved to Wales. The Welsh Government supports the motion to note that policing is a devolved matter in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and agrees with the call for the devolution of policing.

In terms of specialist matters, such as counter-terrorism, being co-ordinated at a UK level, I am aware of the model in Scotland for counter-terrorism is that Police Scotland takes their policy direction from the UK Government, which is delivered through Police Scotland and funded through the Scottish Government. This makes absolute sense, and, as this motion suggests, counter-terrorism is best co-ordinated at a UK level. In developing a model for devolution, this will be a key consideration for any work to be taken here in Wales.

Policing is the only emergency service not devolved. Remedying this would inevitably allow for greater collaboration, whilst developing better relationships, to help to strengthen joint working with the other devolved services. As Julie Morgan made reference to earlier on, collaboration is the name of the game as we move forward. Sharing staff and practice is something that the three police and crime commissioners, and chief constables, are absolutely signed up to currently.

The safety and security of our communities has always been a priority of the Welsh Government, and we are committed to strengthening these further. Devolution would ensure that future legislation affecting policing and community safety in Wales was properly tailored to the Welsh circumstances. Also, we’ve already had close working relationships with the four Welsh chief constables and police and crime commissioners here in Wales, and the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport and I meet them on a regular basis to discuss the ways that we can work together to make our communities safer.

In September, the police and crime commissioners issued a joint statement supporting the devolution of policing to Wales, and I’m pleased that Bob Evans, the now all-Wales deputy chief constable, has been appointed, and will be working with us on this very issue. His role will be to maintain the relationships between the forces, commissioners’ offices, and the Welsh Government. In terms of devolution, we will ensure working effectively in the current arrangements, to consider how these arrangements would work in the devolved setting. This is key to the future of planning for devolution.

I listened to the contributions of Mark Isherwood and the UKIP Member. Now, both were very interesting, but, can I just, for clarity, reaffirm the commitment of the letter I received from the police and crime commissioners and the chair of the all-Wales policing group? The comment says: ‘As the current chair of the all-Wales policing group, I enclose a copy of our joint statement, which was released publicly. This statement has been discussed with the four chief constables, and, while you will appreciate that they would not wish to comment on the matter that requires a political decision, they are content with what we have said in the letter.’

So, the comments made by Mark Isherwood, about an individual telling me one thing and telling him another, then writing to me to say something else, is something I will follow up with the chief constables across Wales. That is not an appropriate comment to make. I will take an intervention from the Member.

I will confirm that the comment that you’re referring to did not come from a chief constable. I do, however, have private meetings with members of the force, at various levels, which I cannot share publicly without their consent. But I can tell you absolutely categorically that every quote I gave, past and present, came directly from their mouths, and I was simply representing those.

Could I also ask, if I may, are you talking about devolution of powers as in Scotland, or are you talking about devolution of powers as in Manchester—in which case, only the powers of the police and crime commissioner? Where would that leave the police and crime commissioners we currently have?

Well, we’re talking about the devolution of the police to Wales, and there is much discussion to be had about that. This discussion is about the concept, the principle of aligning that as a collective of this Assembly. The First Minister has been quite clear that we believe, alongside our police and crime commissioners here in Wales already, in providing a space of planning in order for devolution to come at the appropriate time by the Government that wishes to do that.

The other sense of irony was that the Conservative Party also opposed this principle, yet Nick Bourne, who stood on the Silk Commission, endorsed the principles of Silk—an honourable Conservative Member. So, I’m again surprised that the Member wishes to speak out against him also.

I’ll pick up the UKIP contribution. He started off with the comments that it was an important issue—a very important issue—’but we don’t have a firm view on this’. He then continued to argue against the whole case for making this, which gave me some doubt on his coherence of the concept of devolution. He doubts the funding formula that Steffan Lewis put forward very strongly. This is one of the Members who argued about £340 million for NHS spend in Brexit—and then can’t get his head round the fact of devolution and the Barnett formula for police spending here in Wales. I’d urge the Member just to do a little bit more research on that issue, if he may. Llywydd, as I said earlier, the Government have been very clear on this.

I also, to finish, must pay tribute to the operational staff on the ground—the unsung heroes and heroines who work behind the scenes. They are all willing to go beyond the call of duty to keep our communities safe, and I wish to thank them on behalf of the Government and this Assembly. No-one should forget how much we owe to their goodwill and dedication. There are also lots of issues around funding, which will have to be considered for the future, but I can give the assurance and clarity from this Government’s position: that we are keen to devolve policing to this institution.

I call on Mike Hedges to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I say I speak as a former member of the South Wales Police Authority, which I served on for just under four years? Can I thank everyone who took part in this debate? I think it’s very useful that people have spoken against, because it gives an opportunity to test the arguments being put forward. We need people to test the arguments, and it’s our duty then to explain why what we are saying is right. But I thank everyone who took part.

Steffan Lewis made three key points. Firstly, policing has been devolved not only to Scotland and Northern Ireland—. And Northern Ireland was interesting in the way it was devolved, because it was devolved by a supermajority of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I speak as probably the only person here who believes in supermajority for lots of things, but I think when things are being devolved, such as that, it ought to be available, and if we get a supermajority of 40 out of 60 Members—we don’t want it to be done by 31 to 29—a supermajority is the way forward for it. It’s available for greater Manchester, it’s available for London, but not Wales. Everybody in Wales must ask the same question: ‘Why?’

Secondly, specialist policing needs to be dealt with on a UK basis, but not just on a UK basis. I believe we should stay a member of Europol. I’m not sure that everybody who’s spoken in the debate believes in that. I also think we should remain members of Interpol, because it’s not just what’s happening in England that affects Wales; it’s what’s happening in southern Ireland that affects Wales. And in terms of drugs being brought in, it may well be what’s happening in Amsterdam that affects Wales—and certainly what’s happening in Colombia affects Wales. Certainly, emergency services work together, but policing is the only one not devolved. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Mark Isherwood said that specialist policing must be dealt with on at least a UK basis. That’s absolutely right—but, as I said before, also Europol and Interpol. I know of no-one whatsoever who wants an all-Wales police force. If that was the item being debated today, Mark, I would be on your side. I would be arguing against an all-Wales police force, because I believe it would not benefit large parts of Wales if we had an all-Wales police force, because the policing needs of different parts of Wales are different. But this is not an argument for an all-Wales police force.

Are you therefore giving a categorical statement that the current Welsh Government would not propose a police merger if it had powers devolved to it?

I cannot speak for the Welsh Government. I’m sure Carl Sargeant may well intervene and speak on it, but there has been no suggestion by anybody of an all-Wales police force. But if we come to that, Mark, you and I are on the same side. And I’m sure there are other people over here who argue equally forcefully for the devolution of policing who would also be on the same side.

Greater Manchester has substantial involvement with Cheshire and Merseyside. In fact, it runs into each of them, in much the same way as north Wales runs into Cheshire. Of course, we have differences, but it’s about working together. And one of the things the police have been very good at throughout Britain is working together. They haven’t stopped working in Scotland with Northumberland or Cumbria because there’s devolved policing there. They have to work together.

Julie Morgan said that it’s inexplicable why policing is not devolved. I agree with her entirely. It is inexplicable. And can I also add that asymmetric devolution does not work? The only country which has gone for asymmetric devolution that I know of—although I suspect Steffan will correct me if I’ve got this wrong—is Spain, and they’ve gone closer and closer to symmetry as time has moved on. And places like the United States of America, which has substantial devolution—it has the same devolution to California, with its almost 30 million people, as it does to some of the smaller states, which are slightly smaller than the Cardiff city region.

Why is Wales not fit enough to run policing? Why do we have this inferiority complex? Some people in Wales have this inferiority complex: ‘Oh we can’t do it in Wales; yes they can do it in Scotland, yes they can do it in Northern Ireland, yes they can do it in London, but we Welsh, we’re not quite up to it.’ I believe that we in Wales are as good as anywhere in the world, and I certainly don’t see us as second, third or fourth class.

Julie Morgan raised a really important point that extra PCSOs have been very popular, but we could only provide PCSOs because policing was not devolved. We could have provided police if it had been devolved. Support for additional police is in Labour’s manifesto, and I’m sure many people would actually want that to happen, because people like to see the police. I’ve been told by the police on more than one occasion that they rarely catch somebody when they’re walking the street. What I say to them, and I’ll say to you here now, is that they certainly stop an awful lot of offences happening by the fact that they’re there.

Gareth Bennett says that we need to be wary. Why? Why have we got to be wary in Wales when they don’t have to be wary in Northern Ireland and Scotland? I don’t get that wariness. As I said, symmetric devolution does not work. Steffan explained it, but the Barnett formula, if applied to policing, means that we get more money. Northern Ireland has a smaller population than Wales; Northern Ireland is substantially smaller than Wales. It has had difficulties that we haven’t had in Wales. And although I may disagree with some of the politicians on the opposite side of the Chamber, I’ve never—if I go back 40 years, I wasn’t trying to kill them.

Byron Davies was mentioned, but he never sat on the command floor of—

Did he just say he wanted to kill us?

No, he certainly didn’t say that. He certainly didn’t. Carry on, Mike Hedges.

I’ll repeat it again: what I said was—. I was comparing Wales with Northern Ireland. There are people in the Northern Ireland Assembly who are sitting there today, who, 40 years ago, were on opposite sides, and many of them may have wanted other Members there to be killed. I said that I disagree with the Conservative Party and I disagree with UKIP, but I don’t want to actually kill them—I never have wanted to kill them; I want to beat them in argument. That was the point I was trying to make, and I think it’s important: that Northern Ireland, with all its history and all its problems in the past, is allowed to have devolution of police, but we are not.

Sian Gwenllian said that there’s a consensus in Wales. I think we’ve seen that. I know that Mark Isherwood mentioned that he’d talked to policemen, but I would guess not only weren’t they chief constables, but they weren’t sitting on the command floor. I’ve spoken to police at all sorts of junior levels who have all sorts of interesting views. It’s the people on the command floor who have a view of how policing is being run across the area—it’s not the local sergeant who is involved in an area. Important as his job is, his understanding of the policing of the whole area and the police policy is substantially less than those on the command floor.

It has a close involvement with other devolved services, and not just fire and ambulance, but also with substantial other things run by Welsh Government. It’s involved with local government and it’s involved with social services. It’s involved with a whole range of bodies—I probably haven’t got time to list them all—and not just fire and ambulance.

Can I just finally say that I agree with everything that the Minister has said? I think it’s really important that we believe in Wales, believe in ourselves and support the devolution of policing to Wales.

The question is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.