The next item is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the consultation on the proposed reforms of taxi and private hire vehicle licensing. I call on the Cabinet Secretary to make a statement—Ken Skates.

Diolch, Llywydd. The Welsh Government’s programme for government sets out how we will deliver more and better jobs through a stronger, fairer economy, improve and reform our public services and build a united, connected and sustainable Wales. Our programme for government has been designed to further advance our objectives under the well-being of future generations Act. This requires us to think more about the long term to work better with people, communities and each other, look to prevent problems, and take a more joined-up approach, helping us to create a Wales that we all want to live in now and in the future. This approach is particularly important as we consider how best our plans for improving public transport in Wales are developed and are implemented. An integrated public transport system can and will make a significant contribution to safeguarding the well-being of future generations. We all recognise that our public transport system is key to tackling poor air quality zones, supporting a sustainable and thriving economy and contributing to our ambitions for improving low-emission mobility as part of our efforts to achieve decarbonisation.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

On 28 February, Transport for Wales started a second public consultation on the outcomes to be delivered as part of the next Wales and borders franchise. This franchise will deliver the modernisation of the core Valleys lines as part of the south-east Wales metro. It will support the development of the north-east Wales metro and it will also improve our regional railway services across the Wales and borders franchise area. The outcome of this consultation that ended yesterday will further inform the development of the franchise specification that will bring real benefits to passengers across Wales.

On the same day that Transport for Wales started the consultation, I made a statement to this Chamber about my vision for reforming the way that local bus services are planned and delivered by local authorities and bus operators in Wales. I announced a public consultation that would continue the policy discussion that I started at the bus summit in January about how we improve local bus services as part of our sustainable and viable integrated public transport system. This consultation ends next week, and I am grateful to all the stakeholders that have contributed to the national discussion. I’ll be publishing an outcome report in the summer about what people have told us and how we should move ahead on making changes. It is essential that our local bus services integrate more effectively with our regional and metro rail services to be delivered as part of the rail franchise.

When these planned improvements to rail and bus services are implemented, there will remain communities within our society for which public transport is simply not available or a viable alternative to use of a private motor vehicle. Taxi and private hire services are, therefore, an essential aspect of the transport network here in Wales. Taxis and private hire vehicles provide a vital public service, connecting people to places when alternative public transport services are not available or viable. The contribution that the sector makes to the night-time and tourism economy in many of our communities should not be underestimated. The industry is a crucial component in our ambitions for public transport for Wales. They’re essential for many passengers with disabilities and residents of rural communities, and play an important social role in enhancing the public transport system and facilitating social inclusion. In Wales, the taxi and private hire industry employs about 9,200 licensed drivers, operating more than 5,000 taxis and more than 4,000 private hire vehicles. More than a third of these operate in and around Cardiff and Swansea.

Given the importance the sector has in delivering local public transport, it is surprising to me that the main legal framework governing the licensing of taxi services, otherwise known as hackney carriages, has not undergone any significant reform in nearly 200 years. Private hire services legislation is more recent, dating from 1976 in most of England and Wales, and 1998 in London. Nevertheless, even this comparatively modern legislation struggles to keep up with the radical changes that the internet has introduced in the way that customers book private hire services.

The piecemeal evolution of the regulation of taxi and private hire services has resulted in a complex and fragmented licensing system. The relationship between taxi and private hire services, commonly known as mini cabs, requiring pre-booking, is not clearly defined. The balance struck between national and local rules lacks an overarching rationale, resulting in duplication, inconsistencies and considerable difficulties in cross-authority enforcement. Mobile phones and the internet enable bookings to be made minutes before the journey is undertaken and have revolutionised both the taxi and private hire trades, yet regulation has failed to keep pace.

The outdated legislative framework has become too extensive in some respects, imposing unnecessary burdens on businesses and artificially restricting the range of services available to consumers, and insufficiently comprehensive in other ways, undermining the fundamental goal of protecting not only the travelling public, but safeguarding drivers from exploitation that is becoming more commonplace within the private hire community.

The enactment of the Wales Act 2017, and its expected commencement early next year, will for the first time bring the licensing of taxis and private hire vehicles within the competence of the National Assembly for Wales. It is on that basis that I am considering afresh the significant work undertaken by the Law Commission for England and Wales for the reform of the licensing of taxis and private hire vehicles. I am keen to work with the industry, local licensing authorities and users to develop arrangements that may be introduced to Wales to ensure that taxis and private hire vehicles continue to contribute to our ambitions for a connected and sustainable society.

So, today, I am pleased to announce that I have asked my officials to begin a further public consultation about how licensing of taxis and private hire vehicles can be reformed and improved here in Wales. This consultation will start soon after the UK general election. My starting point for this consultation is that I agree with a number of the proposals put forward by the Law Commission following its extensive review of the law governing the licensing of this sector. But there are some areas that require some further consideration in terms of their application to Wales. For example, I believe that there is a compelling argument for removing the unhelpful distinction between taxis and mini cabs or private hire vehicles, recognising that the sector in Wales is very different to the way that taxis are perceived and operated in London. Advances in technology have made the process of pre-booking a vehicle before making the journey almost instantaneous. So, we need to consider whether this distinction between taxis and mini cabs, or private hire vehicles, should be retained, or whether there are more advantages in moving to a single regime for taxis and mini cabs.

The arrangements proposed by the Law Commission would, if implemented, see the introduction of national standards for all taxis and private hire vehicles. These national standards could be set by the Welsh Ministers to ensure that the quality expectations for taxis and private hire vehicles are universally available to passengers across Wales. But, the power for local licensing authorities to set additional licence conditions where appropriate, in my view, should be retained. Under the Law Commission’s recommendations, local licensing authorities would remain responsible for issuing licences and enforcement for both taxis as well as private hire vehicles. I tend to agree with the Law Commission that public protection demands that novelty vehicles and stretch limousines, for example, are also brought within the scope of the private hire vehicle licensing regime.

And, finally, I am keen to make it easier for providers to work across local authority borders, but with the appropriate arrangements in place to ensure that licensing officers have enforcement powers to deal with vehicles and drivers licensed in different areas. We have a responsibility to ensure that there is clarity of understanding and clear roles and responsibilities within the licensing regime to ensure that the quality of service, universally available, is achieved and maintained. Above all, we have a duty to ensure that the licensing arrangement in Wales safeguards the public and prevents the exploitation of the professional drivers that are delivering these very important services across our communities.

I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his detailed statement today. In 2014, the Law Commission outlined that there was a case to allow local authorities to have flexibility in deciding whether there should be a one-tier system, but I do understand it’s overall recommendation was that the two-tier system, which currently exists in England and Wales, should be retained within a single legal framework for the regulation of taxi and private hire services, because it promotes, of course, consumer choice and provision of a wide range of services.

As I understand it, the Welsh Government are minded towards a single-tier system, stating that the difference between taxis and private hire vehicles were meaningless to consumers. Your statement today seems to suggest that you still have a preference for proposals, which seek to implement national standards, which will not distinguish between taxis and private hire companies. With this in mind, can I ask what considerations you have made within the consultation to allow Welsh councils to respond to a localised one- or two-tier option, and, in light of your recent comments about the national standards to the Petitions Committee, what difficulties do you see—what difficulties do you foresee, I suppose—with the UK Government’s standards should they differ from Wales?

The Law Commission has also said that different ways in which taxis and private hire vehicles are engaged make different levels of regulations appropriate. So, perhaps you can state how you will guard against the unintended consequences if a single system is introduced, which could lead to over- or under-regulation.

Secondly, I understand from speaking to officers at Powys County Council, and from others as well, that there is the potential for cross-border issues with different licensing regimes in England and Wales. So, for example, once licensed, will providers be able to work across England and Wales and be subject to enforcement action by officers of any licensing authority? In its report, the Law Commission outlined significant concerns about the ability of taxis and private hire vehicles to accept bookings outside their local authority boundaries, which have been responded to in part by provisions in the Deregulation Act 2015. How will the Welsh Government be able to reconcile potentially a different operating system over what is a soft border between England and Wales? I’m sure, like me, Cabinet Secretary, you’ll understand the difficulties of working across border, representing a constituency on the border with England.

Thirdly, and finally, disabled passengers continue to suffer severe difficulties in obtaining and using taxis and PHV services. I think we can all agree with the overarching aim of seeing an improvement in terms of training for drivers of buses, trains, taxis and private hire vehicles, as well as an end to disabled people being disadvantaged in terms of PHV services. So, I would be grateful for confirmation as to whether the proposed reforms to licensing will include national standards in relation to driver training and vehicle specification.

I’d like to thank the Member for his questions, and I’ll begin with that very last point. Yes, it’s our intention to incorporate within national standards enhanced training for all drivers of taxis and private hire vehicles to ensure that there’s consistency across all services. I think one of the great advantages of our proposals is that it will bring a fares regime that is consistent across all services as well, which, in turn, could help deliver on the vision of the south-east Wales and north-east Wales metros with integrated ticketing, and a fare regime that is understood and clear and simple to appreciate.

The Member raised the very important issue of cross-border consistency, and this is, of course, something that is at the forefront of my considerations representing a constituency, like himself, that is right on the Wales-England border. I outlined in my statement how it’s my intention to ensure that providers, to work across local authority borders, have an easier regime to understand and to operate to, but that there should also be appropriate arrangements in place to ensure that licensing officers have enforcement powers to deal with vehicles and drivers licensed in different areas.

Now, we can’t wait any longer for a response by the UK Government to the Law Commission’s report. It was published, as the Member outlined, in May 2014, with 84 recommendations, and, despite the convention that the UK Government formally responds to the Law Commission’s reports within a 12-month period, there has yet to be a response. Now, I appreciate that, within 12 months of May 2014, Britain was within a period of a general election. Notwithstanding that, I do believe that there has been sufficient time since the 2015 election to respond to the Law Commission’s report. In the absence of a response, I believe that it is incumbent upon us as Welsh Ministers to ensure that the rights of passengers and the rights of workers in the taxi and private hire vehicle trade are key considerations in our work moving forward. Therefore, I think we should be quite proud that we are at the forefront in the UK of considering new regimes.

That said, it would be my hope that the UK Government, in responding to the Law Commission’s report, will also appreciate the recommendations that we are adopting, so that, on a cross-border nature, if the UK Government considers favourably those recommendations made by the Law Commission, then we will have, as I outlined in my statement, a consistent regime and enforcement system that spans not just local authority borders within Wales, but also national borders between England and Wales, and potentially between Scotland and England.

The Member also raised the question of the need to ensure that, during the consultation, anybody who wishes to respond has an opportunity to offer opinion and evidence concerning the best way forward as to whether we have a single or two-tier system. I outlined my firm belief that a single-tier system is most suitable for Wales, and the reason that the two-tier system was recommended for retention by the Law Commission, I think, is in no small part whatsoever down to the fact that the London taxi market operates in a very, very different way to that which exists across the rest of the UK. And the Law Commission’s report was therefore heavily swayed by the evidence and the submissions made by the London taxi market. I do believe that the system that operates in Wales is distinctly different to that which operates in London, and therefore it’s my belief that a single-tier system would be best for Wales. Notwithstanding that, we will be considering all responses to the consultation that will begin next month and last three months.

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his very extensive statement on the consultation on the proposed reforms of taxi and private vehicle hire licensing? Obviously, it’s a moot point today because we rarely talk about taxis in this forum, and after the turmoil and carnage of Manchester last night there were several reports of individual taxi drivers, several taxi drivers in fact, just taking people away for free in a common show of humanity. That, I think, deserves recognition, given that we are discussing taxi drivers today. That’s a phenomenal piece of work in response to a dire emergency and common humanity shines through in the face of appalling carnage.

Turning to the Cabinet Secretary’s actual statement, I’ll just zone in on the paragraph concerning the enactment of the Wales Act 2017. The Cabinet Secretary says:

‘Its expected commencement early next year will for the first time, bring the licensing of taxis and private-hire vehicles within the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales.’

Let me say, first of all, it’s pleasing that we are gaining some powers under the Wales Act 2017 because that’s not a universal feeling, I have to say, on these benches. By and large, we’ve lost powers. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware there’s a huge list of reserved matters now, reserved to Westminster: 193 such matters and growing. As well as that, all the matters relating to those reserved powers as well, and also to cap it all—like a triple lock if you like—the vestigial Henry VIII powers that mean any Minister of the Crown can do what they want in terms of changing legislation passed by this place. So, remembering all of that—and that’s basically anything to do with employment law, industrial relations, and enforcement is now a reserved matter and we can do nothing about it—how confident is the Cabinet Secretary that he can bring about meaningful legislation in this field to stop the exploitation of taxi drivers, for example, and also make sure that taxi drivers are obliged to take people on even short journeys as a public protection measure? Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank the Member for his questions and his contribution? I most heartily agree. I think taxi drivers and private-hire vehicle drivers last night in Manchester showed a consistent and selfless and altruistic approach. I’d like to put on record my thanks to them for showing the industry across the UK just how valuable they are to our country.

It’s my belief that we are making the most of those powers that we are acquiring through the Wales Act and this set of proposals concerning taxis and private hire vehicles will make an enormous difference to many, many people across Wales. It will make a significant difference to those passengers, who until now perhaps have not benefitted from a fair regime for taxi fares and private-hire vehicle fares.

One of the points that was raised by Russell George was the need to ensure that there is adequate training provided to all drivers. This will ensure that that happens through the introduction of national standards.

It will also help address the challenge that’s been presented to the industry with modern technology and particularly with the exploitative nature of some so-called ‘modern’ working practices. We are all aware of the GMB’s case concerning the exploitation of Uber drivers, well this set of proposals aims to address that head on. In order to do that, it will require licensing authorities to carefully monitor and to carefully enforce those standards that will be introduced by Welsh Ministers and which can be built upon by those authorities themselves. I do believe that, across Wales, we’ve got licensing authorities that want to ensure that the best services are provided for passengers and that workers are protected. The set of proposals that we’ve outlined will ensure that they have the tools to do that.

I actually agree with Dai Lloyd and Ken Skates that the role played by the taxi drivers in Liverpool and Manchester was absolutely exemplary. Most taxi drivers are a reflection of the best of the culture of the communities where they work and that was seen last night.

However, I think that, although this is a service operated by private companies, the public regards it as a public service, and in that regard, they expect that they will be protected by ensuring that those who are given the privilege to operate as taxi drivers, mini cab drivers or Uber drivers, will have been screened to ensure that there’s nobody there who is going to be a risk to their passengers.

I was appalled to read recently that in Rochdale, of all places, there are still drivers with criminal records of violence and sexual assault apparently still operating as licensed taxi drivers. That is of considerable concern, and I hope that this consultation will enable us to ensure that those who are licensed to drive a taxi, or a private hire vehicle or an Uber, will have gone through this rigorous enhanced screening process, similar to teachers or people working with vulnerable adults or children. I’m not at all averse to the rehabilitation of offenders, but we need to consider every application on its merits and I would not expect people to be licensed who have been convicted of driving without a licence or insurance, or indeed driving dangerously, or having recently been convicted of a violent offence or a sexual assault. Because there is a privilege involved in taking a passenger home, when the passenger is on their own with that individual, and we need to know that there are safeguards in place to ensure that they are not falling prey, as victims of crime.

We need to ensure that taxi firms are running a tight ship, that they know where their drivers are and that they know what they’re up to and can be held accountable, if anybody’s using a taxi service as a front for drug dealing or trafficking or other illegal activities. Because it is a privilege, and therefore we need to ensure that a high standard is being maintained. So, like Dai Lloyd, I want to also ensure that once somebody has said they are available for hire, they’re not discriminating against people, either because they have a dog in tow, or because they’ve got a wheelchair, or because they only want to go a short journey, because those are the terms of trade. They have to make themselves available to all comers, unless, of course, these people are so drunk or so violent that it would be a risk for them to go inside the taxi.

Can I thank the Member for her very important points? It was brought to our attention recently in Southend that licences were refused to some drivers who then went on to Transport for London and obtained a licence from them and are now operating in Southend, outside of the Transport for London jurisdiction. Uber, who are not allowed to issue licences for places such as Reading, Hatfield and many other areas, are taking bookings and plying for work in those areas. This demonstrates that the law has become unworkable, because firms like Uber are operating with impunity and taking fares from areas where they are not licensed. Many local licensing authorities feel powerless to do anything. So, there is a very clear need for national, enforceable standards and regulations. I don’t believe, Deputy Presiding Officer, that people would get on a bus or board a plane, or a train for that matter, without trusting that the people behind the controls were properly licensed and who had the correct knowledge and proper safeguarding checks, as Jenny Rathbone mentioned.

It’s my firm belief that deregulation would be a race to the bottom, but that race has actually been achieved, and Government now needs to take notice and bring about the national changes that are required to protect the travelling public and drivers of taxis and private hire vehicles. We are determined to take action, and it would be very beneficial to the rest of the UK, and indeed to Welsh citizens, if the UK Government could follow our lead in responding to the Law Commission’s report and make the necessary changes across England as well.

Thanks to the Minister for his statement today. You referred in your statement to the rapid technological changes in the ways in which passengers can order taxis these days. You didn’t specifically mention Uber in your statement, but of course you did then talk about Uber in response to one of the contributors. It’s a somewhat difficult issue. Yes, many drivers are worried about the impact of Uber on the way in which they do their business and on their livelihood generally. On the other hand, I have had people telling me as passengers that they view it as a welcome development. So, you have to, to some extent, balance these varying viewpoints. I wasn’t totally sure how ultimately you would view Uber and how it fits into the licensing framework that you see in Wales and I wondered if you could clarify that, and also with regard to the point Dai Lloyd made about the possible limitations on legal competence relating to employment law that your Government has under the Wales Act.

Another issue that you looked at in your statement was effective integrated transport; that’s obviously one of the Government’s aims. Sometimes we do have railway stations with no taxi rank serving them, so there is a fairly erratic provision of taxi ranks at railway stations in Wales, as elsewhere. For instance, Pontypridd—in recent years they don’t have, any more, any provision for taxis outside the train station. The rank is now in town, which is a considerable distance away for immobile people, so it’s not particularly helpful. My office has been in touch with Arriva about this issue, and their response is that they didn’t want provision of taxis at the front of the station—that’s on land that they own—because it’s been a safety issue in the past, with people turning up late at night, probably off the last train from Cardiff, and staggering across the road. So, yes, that’s a safety issue, clearly, but does the Government have any intention to standardise in any way the provision of taxis at railway stations? It seems to me that in the case of Pontypridd there may be a case for having some provision there, despite the safety aspect.

Dai Lloyd mentioned fleetingly the short fares problem that has been an issue in Cardiff that was highlighted in the local press. We did have problems with young women late on Saturday nights. There were a couple of cases of sexual assault and we then had the issue of the problem of women walking home alone, sometimes in a less than sober state, and they were unable to get taxis in some cases because they lived only a short distance away from the city centre. This is covered, of course, by licensing regulations, but the problem is how to enforce these regulations and how to ensure that drivers do take these short fares.

Another problem that has arisen—well, I can’t say it’s a problem—a suspected problem in Cardiff in recent years has been the aspect of whether the badge holder is actually the person who is licensed to drive the vehicle. So, that’s another one that’s covered by current licensing requirements, but, again, how do we make sure that the licensing authority effectively enforces these regulations?

I was pleased that Russell George mentioned the Petitions Committee’s recent inquiry into the problems of disabled people accessing taxis, and you yourself touched on the fact that you are going to be looking at strengthening the training procedures, so there is going to be some sort of standardised training for the drivers in dealing with disabled people. Because that was something that came out of the inquiry very strongly, that disabled people did feel, quite often with taxi drivers, they were dealing with people who hadn’t been adequately trained to deal with them. The other aspect that came out relating to taxis was a lack of fittings—a lack of taxis that were fitted with the right facilities to deal with disabled people. So, that is another thing, maybe, that you could enlighten us on now. Thank you.

Can I thank Gareth Bennett for his questions and observations? He makes a number of important points, and I very much welcome the petition that was submitted by Whizz-Kidz concerning access to public transport, with a particular focus on taxis and private hire vehicles. I gave evidence recently to the Petitions Committee, where I outlined how I expected change to be delivered. And the proposals outlined today are part of a package of measures aimed at enhancing the passenger experience, particularly for disabled children, disabled passengers, but for the general public as a whole.

I go back to my point earlier that existing legislation is two centuries’ old, and, whilst technological change is fantastic and should be embraced, we also need to make sure that legislation keeps apace with technological change as well. Uber offers choice and convenience—of that there is no doubt. It’s a fantastic new service and entrant to the market. But, the benefits of Uber should not come with the high price of driver exploitation, and for that reason we do need to update legislation. It’s absolutely vital—not just for passengers, but for drivers as well.

National standards should apply to all drivers of vehicles, and to all vehicles on the roads, regardless of whether they’re taxis or mini cabs, because all passengers should expect the same consistency of service. Many people who use taxis and mini cabs might not know the difference between them, and the different regimes, the different licensing issues. It’s my view that people shouldn’t need to bear that in mind and consider those differences before getting into a vehicle; they should have confidence on getting inside a taxi or a private hire vehicle, knowing that they will pay a fair fee, and that they will have a standard of service that’s consistent across the trade.

The Member raised the point of taxi ranks at railway stations. Of course, rail infrastructure, including, in many incidences, train stations, is the responsibility of UK Government. And we’ve consistently argued for devolution of infrastructure in that regard, because we have seen infrastructure in Wales historically underfunded. That said, in those areas where we are taking on responsibility, such as in the south-east Wales metro area, the core Valleys lines, we would wish to see appropriate service provision at new stations, if we’re going to attract investment for taxi vehicles, private hire vehicles, for bicycles, and for parking as well. We see the service of taxis and private hire vehicles as being critical to the vision of a metro service that is fully integrated, and, therefore, provision such as taxi ranks are absolutely vital.

In terms of passengers not being able to access taxis or private hire vehicles, the changes that have been proposed would also enable licensing authorities to limit the number of licences that are issued, so that, in any given area, there is an appropriate number of vehicles available, working potentially on a regional basis, to ensure that, on a cross-border basis, local authorities across a region can have confidence knowing that there are sufficient drivers and sufficient vehicles available for the general public.

I very much welcome the statement. And can I add my agreement with what Dai Lloyd and Jenny Rathbone said about the action of the taxi driver and private hire drivers in Manchester?

Like many other people, I have friends and relatives working as taxi and private hire drivers, which is not surprising, considering the huge number of people who are employed in that industry. In many areas, taxis and private hire vehicles are the only public transport. They’re an essential part of the transport network; without them, many people could not travel after 6 o’clock in the evening or on a Sunday.

But most people don’t distinguish between hackney cabs and private hire vehicles. They book what they term a ‘taxi’, which they use generally to cover both types, and a vehicle turns up. And most people don’t, and I include myself in that, go and check whether it’s a taxi or a private hire—I ordered it, it mentions my name when it stops outside and I get in it. So, I think that the distinction between the two has become very blurred and as the Cabinet Secretary said earlier, the mobile phone has done it because you used to have to pre-book before you went, phone up and say ‘I need—’, but now you can book just before you’re ready to leave. Can I also welcome the public consultation?

Can I talk about cross-border licensing? Historically, lots of vehicles have been licensed in Powys and worked in Swansea, and the Cabinet Secretary said earlier in an answer to Gareth Bennett about having regional working. That’s fine with Neath Port Talbot and Swansea, but when you bring Powys in, dare I say it, the top end of Montgomeryshire isn’t part of the Swansea region, but Ystradgynlais is part of it. So, there are difficulties in defining what a region is and there are concerns that people have been licensing in Powys and using them in Swansea, where Swansea has had no control over them and, perhaps more importantly, they’ve had no control over the number of vehicles in use in Swansea because they’ve been licensed in Powys. And I use the word ‘Swansea’, I could say ‘Neath Port Talbot’ in exactly the same way because they’re equally as affected.

So, I’ve got two questions. Will the Government consider producing enforceable national standards and a national charge? My understanding is that it’s cheaper to license in Powys than it is in Swansea, therefore people do so. And also the standards that you need in Powys are different to those in Swansea, and therefore it’s easier to license, so people are making that decision that is not necessarily beneficial for those who are interested in taxi provision within Swansea.

On the Petitions Committee, yes, we took a lot of evidence, including from you, Cabinet Secretary, regarding taxis and there will be a report that will hopefully be coming before this Assembly at some stage in the future. The only thing I would raise from it is: are you considering setting quotas within the large taxi firms for the numbers that can take wheelchairs? In Swansea, there is one taxi firm/co-operative that has about 180 to 200 taxis. I think when you get to firms of that size, actually asking them to have 5 per cent or 10 per cent being able to take people in wheelchairs, I don’t is unreasonable. So, will you look at actually setting quotas, certainly for the firms with more than 10 taxis?

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his two questions and for the contribution that he’s made to this discussion? There are 9,200 drivers with licences operating across Wales. There are many more people who are employed in the sector, whether it be as telephone operators or within human resources of the larger firms. So, it is an important contributor to the Welsh economy, particularly to the night-time economy, and for that reason I think it’s important that we do give it sufficient time and consideration to ensure that there are high-quality standards applied right across the length and breadth of Wales. And the Member is absolutely right: I touched on it earlier that many people will not distinguish between what a taxi is and what a minicab is. There are 5,000 taxis that operate across Wales and there are 4,000 minicabs. Many people will just refer to one or all as a taxi or taxis, and so it’s important that those national standards are introduced across all of the vehicles.

In terms of regional working and the first question the Member asked, yes, but it will be up for consultation. I would ideally seek to have a consistent approach taken to the charging for national standards and licensing of all drivers, and this is something that should be considered as part of the consultation that will begin on 12 June, because I think regardless of whether you’re in Swansea or in Powys, you should have a very clear and transparent regime that is consistent across local authority areas.

In regard to the second question and the provision for wheelchairs and whether quotas should be set, particularly for those companies that operate a minimum number of vehicles, again, we want to work with both the sector—with the industry—and with passengers and with user groups, and so as part of the consultation we’ll be considering any views that are expressed in this regard.

Finally, Suzy Davies.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, just with reference to the consultation and this issue of consistency, I’m wondering whether you might consider including questions about the freedom of cab drivers/taxi drivers to take responsibility for their own decisions on the maintenance of those cabs—namely, that they should be free to go to any local garage, provided it’s reputable and corresponds with any requirements that the local authority might reasonably place on them, in order for that maintenance work to be done, rather than being compelled to use the local authority’s own maintenance section, if you like, where, of course, they have no control over the cost. And then further, that licensing authorities might be required to expressly explain why, or whether, they require drivers to have maintenance checks more frequently than the standard minimum. I have no objection to them doing that, but perhaps the drivers themselves would like to know why they’re being asked to go for maintenance four times a year rather than two, just by way of example. Thank you.

Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions, and say, essentially, that the introduction of national standards is aimed at ensuring that vehicles are of a consisting quality right across Wales? And so, whether it’s twice a year or four times a year, I think what’s crucially important is that vehicles are maintained properly and to a very clear and transparent minimum standard based, not just necessarily on how many times a year a car is maintained, but crucially on the number of miles that it’s travelled in any given period. So, as part of the consultation, I would hope that we’ll have views expressed concerning maintenance schedules, but it’s my view that there should be a very consistent approach taken to vehicle maintenance across Wales.

In terms of where vehicles should and can be maintained, and the potential freedom of licensed drivers to maintain them at different garages that are not necessarily owned, operated or endorsed by local authorities, again, I’d very much welcome observations and comments on this particular point. It’s my view that the maintenance standards should be based not necessarily on the provision of maintenance services by certain outlets or service providers, but on minimum standards that are expected, and so, provided that a maintenance garage is registered as meeting those minimum requirements, I think it offers opportunities for a more competitive environment for garages for operate in.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.