Rydym yn symud i grŵp 8. Mae'r grŵp nesaf yn ymwneud ag ymarfer Gweinidogion Cymru ar bwerau a dyletswyddau dan y Ddeddf hon. Y prif welliant a’r unig un yn y grŵp hwn yw gwelliant 49. Rwy'n galw ar Steffan Lewis i gynnig a siarad am y gwelliant. Steffan.

Amendment 49 (Steffan Lewis) moved.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I formally move. Amendment 49 puts the stated objective of this Bill, which is to reduce the amount of waste going to landfill, on its face. From its introduction, this Bill has been described as having an environmental purpose rather than a fiscal one. So, the Cabinet Secretary has said that the Bill is intended to help the Welsh Government achieve their goal of a zero-waste Wales—a goal that we share. It may be unusual for a tax to have its fiscal and policy purposes linked in this way, but in this case the tax is more about the impact it will have on public behaviour than about the money it will raise. Therefore, we believe it appropriate for the policy objective of this tax to be enshrined on the Bill’s face.

As other Members have said during the scrutiny of this Bill at committee stage, landfill disposals tax is unusual because it seeks to become less financially beneficial over time, and because this tax should reduce the amount of waste going to landfill, the amount of money raised will also be reduced. It is possible at some point to envisage a time when the cost of administering this tax may become greater than the revenue raised, but it’s vital that the tax is not abandoned at this point. That would have the perverse impact of re-incentivising landfill and potentially undo the environmental progress we hope to make.

When we reach the point where we need to re-evaluate this tax, its policy purpose must remain central to that re-evaluation. I understand that there may be exceptions in some limited circumstances, so amendment 49 does include provision for Welsh Ministers to have regard to other matters as they think appropriate when exercising their powers under the Bill, in addition, of course, to the primary environmental objective. By ensuring that the environmental objective is preserved on the Bill’s face, we can be certain that the landfill disposals tax will continue to have an environmental objective both now and in the future. It’s important to futureproof this legislation, so that any future Government that might seek to abandon the environmental objective will require a change of the law and the approval of the Welsh Parliament in order to do so.

Welsh Conservatives support this amendment in principle. However, Steffan Lewis has—I would say inadvertently, but probably advertently—hit upon an interesting aspect with the way that this tax proceeded in committee at Stage 2. We did have discussions about that balance, that very important balance between having a tax that is there to raise funds, and we know we’re going to lose money from the block grant when this tax is devolved, so that’s its primary aim, vis-à-vis the environmental aspect of the tax, which others argued is the primary aim. I wasn’t entirely confident in the Stage 2 deliberations we did that we were entirely clear about where that balance lay. I just heard what you said, Steffan, that this is primarily an environmental tax and so its future role in reducing landfill should be safeguarded at all costs. I’ll give way to Mike Hedges.

When it was first brought in as landfill tax, the reason was to stop local authorities just dumping, to make it no longer economically viable for them to just dump, and the additional cost meant that people started recycling, and it had a huge effect on recycling. So, when it first came in under the Government of Westminster, the aim was, almost exclusively, to try and change behaviour.

Yes, you’re completely right. When the UK tax was brought in, that was the reason. But, of course, this is a devolved tax and we’re losing money through the block grant once it’s devolved. So, over time, as the tax diminishes, then, clearly, that amount would diminish. Now, I’m not saying that that’s not happening at the UK level. Clearly, there is a fall-off in the tax, but we have got—. And the reason for me speaking on this amendment is because I’m not saying we’re opposing this in any way, Steffan Lewis, but we do believe that it does raise a number of interesting issues about the way that a devolved tax operates, and the way a future Government might seek to use it. There is a revenue implication to this, and this is primarily a tax Bill. It is not primarily an environmental Bill. I just think that it would be helpful if, moving forward, when the Welsh Government does bring forward future taxes—because you have the right to develop your own taxes in the Welsh Government, independent of those; we know that that’s part of the current settlement—that these sorts of issues are resolved in the future. But we are happy to support this amendment.

Thank you. I call the Cabinet Secretary.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Other Members will have had a small flavour of a wider debate that’s gone on in the Finance Committee ever since this Bill was first introduced. It’s a Bill, I suppose, I would describe as a tax Bill with an environmental purpose at its core.

Steffan Lewis introduced an amendment to this effect at Stage 2. I said at that time that there were some technical and legal issues with the drafting of it, and I’m very grateful to Steffan Lewis for the constructive and helpful conversations that we’ve had between Stages 2 and 3, and the amendment in front of the Assembly this afternoon is one that the Government side are very happy to support.

As you’ve heard from Steffan, the amendment will require Welsh Ministers, when exercising powers and duties under the Act, to have regard to the objective of reducing landfill disposals in Wales. It’s a statutory duty then, which ensures that this is a robust commitment that is in place for this, and future Governments. The inclusion of subsection (1)(b) is important because it does allow Welsh Ministers to have regard to other matters, which, in relatively restricted sets of circumstances, will be important. We’re very pleased to support amendment 49, which I hope is a practical demonstration of what Simon Thomas said earlier when he spoke of the spirit of collaboration that has characterised the development of this piece of legislation.

Diprwy Lywydd, in that spirit, I just wanted to put on record the results of a further set of conversations that have gone on between Stage 2 and Stage 3. At Stage 2, Nick Ramsay moved a set of amendments in relation to a review of this tax. We’ve been able to have further discussions with both Steffan Lewis and Nick Ramsay between Stage 2 and Stage 3. As a result, I just want to put on record our agreement that there should be a similar independent review of landfill disposals tax as was agreed in the context of land transaction tax, but that independent review should be carried out covering the whole of the tax, including the new unauthorised disposals and the communities scheme, and that we should conduct that independent review to the same timetable as agreed for LTTA. I think that set of agreements is another important contribution to making sure that this tax is properly robust; it reflects the agreements that we’ve reached during the period between Stages 2 and 3, and I’m glad to have the opportunity to put them on the record this afternoon.

Thank you very much. I call on Steffan Lewis to reply to the debate. No? Thank you. The question is that amendment 49 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 49 is agreed.

Amendment 49 agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.