5. 4. Statement: Brexit and Devolution: Securing Wales's Future

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:51 pm on 20 June 2017.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 3:51, 20 June 2017

Can I thank the Member for his comments? First of all, the approach has not been consistent, shall we say, with regard to the devolved nations. Some departments are better than others, at official level, in engaging. The very first act that Michael Gove—one of the very first acts that Michael Gove—took forward when he became the DEFRA secretary was to cancel meetings with the devolved Ministers, which was not perhaps the most positive step that he could have taken. I have, as the Member will know, written to the Prime Minister. In that, I’ve suggested an immediate JMC. I’ve suggested we should invite the leaders of the DUP and Sinn Fein, even though they’re not First and Deputy First Minister yet, but I think it’s important they are part of those discussions.

The Welsh Conservative MPs have been completely silent, as far as I can tell, so far. It’s in marked contrast to the view taken by the Scottish Conservatives, who’ve been very vocal and had a good election result in Scotland. Ruth Davidson and her team have been very vocal in outlining what they think the UK should do. I’ve not heard anything at all from Welsh Conservative MPs, and I regret that because they have an important voice as part of the debate, but nothing heard from them yet.

With regard to the continuity Bill, the one thing we do know is that the continuity Bill would need to become an Act before the great repeal Bill became an Act, because we would need to preserve our position before the great repeal Bill was able to interfere with it. So, the work is already ongoing, but we know that that’s the timescale we are working to. The great repeal Bill is going to take—I mean, there are some voices in Westminster who think this can be done by Christmas. Bluntly, the fact there’s no Queen’s Speech next year is an indication of how long it’s actually going to take. So, we’ll keep an eye on the timescale there.

The question about the capacity of Welsh Government is a fair one. It is something that I’ve been exploring for some time with the Permanent Secretary. I’m confident that we have the right people in place. We will never have depth in the way that the UK Government does, because of numbers, but we have ability and expertise and I’m confident that we can meet the challenge that is ahead of us. There will be, inevitably, consequences for this Assembly. There may be major legislative burdens that the Assembly will face over the next few years. We won’t know until we see the text of the great repeal Bill itself.

And, finally, on the ports—. Well, of course, the view of the UK Government will be, ‘Well, Ireland will be fine because there’s always been a common travel area’. Well, that’s not the case anymore. For the first time, there will be potentially border controls in place. Nobody wants to see that. Perhaps more realistically, there will be customs checks again. Now, you can’t have a seamless border and customs checks. If Ireland is within the customs union and the UK isn’t then you will have customs checks that are rigorous, and with that you run the risk of igniting conflict in Northern Ireland again, or you create a paradise for smugglers, quite frankly. That border was known for years as a place where a great deal of smuggling went on. This would make it even worse. That is something that would not be in the interest either of us or indeed of the island of Ireland. When I’ve raised this issue, the answer I’ve always had back is, ‘Oh, it’ll be resolved’. Well, there’s no sign of it being resolved yet, and that, potentially, is the most difficult part of the negotiations. What do you do—? Because most people who live on this island think that the UK is an island and haven’t given thought to the fact that there is a land border—actually, that’s one of the most difficult issues that’ll need to be resolved.