Could I thank Darren for his broad welcome for the direction of travel outlined in the White Paper? In response to many of the questions that he has raised, the whole point of having a White Paper and a consultation is because we want to canvass a wide variety of views on these areas.

First of all, if I start by going backwards, I’ll start with the sixth forms and you’ll be aware that the question in the paper does not give a hard and fast proposal for where sixth forms could sit. Ellen Hazelkorn, in her report, said that in most systems, sixth-form provision would sit outside PCET, but it is a part of post-compulsory education and training. So, the question is: do we want to subject that particular part of PCET to a different type of regime, one that is fundamentally monitored by Estyn and very much part of the school system, or do we see it as what it is—as part of post-compulsory education and training? So, there’s a genuine debate to be had about how best sixth-form provision can be regulated.

But, let me be absolutely clear that this is not about saying that we’re not going to have sixth forms, and this is not about saying that we’re moving to a tertiary model. This is about saying, for those particular groups of learners: how can their interests—how can we look after them and provide opportunities in that way that will have quality assurance and the issues around destinations, making sure that people are doing the right course at the right time? There’s a genuine opportunity to feed back in that.

Student voice is very important to me at all levels. I think in the past, politicians of all stripes have been guilty of regarding students as your typical 18-year-old school leaver, perhaps, who completes their A-levels and goes off to university. What we do know, and what our economy demands, is that people need to have access to training and educational opportunities for the entire period of their life, and people will make different choices about when studying is right for them—they will have to combine it often with caring responsibilities, perhaps. So, diversity in the student voice is very important, and we recognise that, as a Welsh Government, as we try to move towards a new system of student support that will give parity to undergraduates whether they study full time or part time, or whether they are undergraduate or postgraduate. We recognise the diversity in that.

With regard to the issue of changes in England, I have to say to the Member that I am very concerned about changes arising out of new legislation in England and what that might mean for us. So, for instance, with regard to UK Research and Innovation, the Member says, ‘Give me an example of why you should be worried about this’. The absolute intransigence of the previous Minister, and I think he still is the Minister—Jo Johnson has been reappointed—to acknowledge having a Welsh representative on that body, and, indeed, having a Scottish representative on that body, fills me with concern. The fact that each devolved Government will not be represented on that body gives me cause for concern.

We’re asking an awful lot of these people involved in UKRI. For most of the time, this will be an England-only body—they will just be thinking about the needs of England. But, occasionally, they will have to switch mode and they’ll have to think about a UK model. And, this is a lot to ask of somebody. This is a lot to ask of people. I think we need to make sure that we protect our interest. We also have to recognise that in making moneys available, maybe the strategic direction and the priorities for that body might well serve the English economy, but that isn’t necessarily the same as what we need for our economy and what the research needs are for our economy. We can’t abdicate responsibility for that and that’s why I am extremely cautious and why I feel we need to look to protect Welsh interests in this particular area.

I’m not saying for a minute that our institutions can’t compete for this funding. But I’m just saying that we need to protect Welsh interests and to put ourselves in the strongest position to take advantage of these issues, because research is absolutely crucial to us as a Government, and crucial to us as a nation. We need to make sure that research is integral to the work of this particular body. Can I make clear that this is not about stepping onto the very important principle of institutional autonomy or guaranteeing academic freedoms? Those are very dear to me. But the commission will build on current strengths and encourage increased research and innovation activities in companies and other organisations, because if we’re honest, we’re not where we would want Wales to be, especially when it comes to private sector investment in research and innovation. We’re not where we want to be. We need a new focus on this and that’s why I’ve invited, along with my colleagues, the Reid inquiry to look at what best we can do and this sits alongside this particular piece of work.

The Member also raised the issue of duplication. Well, the purpose of having one body in this way is to try and make sure that we move away from issues around duplication and confusion. And issues around quality, again, let’s be absolutely clear: because of changes that have happened across the border, we have to take this opportunity to see whether we need to protect ourselves to assure quality. So, for instance, at the moment, a student can apply to an institution in England that doesn’t have degree-awarding powers. So, you could start, as a student at an institution—. Because of the marketisation of that particular sector, you could start on a course without knowing that that course will lead to a degree because that institution doesn’t have degree-awarding powers. We need to make sure that issues like that and quality and student assurance are underpinned in our system, and this White Paper gives us the opportunity to make sure that we’ve got that.