4. 3. Statement: Update Following the Grenfell Tower Fire

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 2:48 pm on 4 July 2017.

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Photo of Carl Sargeant Carl Sargeant Labour 2:48, 4 July 2017

Thank you for your questions, David Melding. Llywydd, if I may—several questions there. First of all, on the issue around cavity spaces, the Member raises issues around that. I would be reluctant to offer a view on that in the prematurity of the public inquiry into that. I do think there were several aspects of the Grenfell Tower that appear to have significant factors in contribution to the fire system breakdown, whether that be compartmental or actual exterior failings, but I wouldn’t like to pre-empt that. Of course, if cavity spaces are part of that process, then we need to look at that very carefully in the advice we receive.

In terms of the cladding and the advice in terms of relocation, and giving advice to remove cladding, I’m taking the advice from the independent advisory group from the UK—the Department for Communities and Local Government. These are professionals, and I don’t think this is a political decision. This should be based upon evidence and their advice. If they suggest that the removal of cladding is the best option, then we will seek to remove that cladding and we’ll talk about the implications of finances after that. But the Member is right to also say that just removing the aluminium cladding of a building can pose a further risk by exposing the insulation process. So, we have to be measured in the processes that we are going to implement if we do do that. Also, the issue is that what the tests have been conducted on has been part of a composite of the unit. So, only a sample to provide whether the substance contained in the sample was flammable or combustible, whereas I think the next stages we possibly need to be looking at are about the whole-system approach in terms of where we’re able to test a whole system to see whether the activity of that panel is safe and complies with British standards and the regulations, as was thought when it was installed. I think that could be the next stages that we move to—giving confidence to the people who live in those premises that the fire services have both checked and continue to work with tenants of the affected areas to give them reassurance about the safety implications of the fire systems that are in place.

On the issue of Grenfell Tower, again, the Member raises issues about building regulations. I’d also raise a point of caution in terms of, again, understanding what the true effects are of testing. At this time, we are aware that our buildings have cladding installed that complies with building regulations, and therefore if the building regulations are wrong, then we have to have a review of that. I’ve got a meeting again with Lesley Griffiths in terms of the detail of that, but also listening to the advisory panel in terms of what their thoughts are on this.

On other buildings—education, health and public buildings, leisure, stadiums—we have started the activity of asking for feedback from all of the relevant agencies. I’ve written to all Cabinet colleagues. I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has written to local authorities to ask around school buildings and other university buildings. My primary concern on a risk basis assessment is, first of all, the high-rise blocks of flats, and then I think we need to move to where people reside of an evening, cook, and there are, therefore, some student accommodation that should have a high priority in making sure that we are absolutely certain about the safety mechanisms around those.

The other point of interest is in terms of the private sector, which is a little bit more difficult in terms of how we identify them. And I’m working with Ken Skates’s department to look at what connections we have with private sector landlords and larger companies, but also for the Rent Smart Wales team, with the registration of landlords, to use the data around that to contact individuals around property management again. We do have powers of intervention, but there are lots of powers with other authorities in terms of non-compliance. So, if a private landlord was not to seek to comply with sample testing et cetera, then the local authority, or the fire service, indeed, could ask and require that with prohibition notices. So, we do have things in place subject to the need to do that.