4. 3. Statement: Student Support in 2018-19 and the Publication of the Summary of Results from the Consultation on Implementing the Welsh Government's Response to the Diamond Report

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:24 pm on 11 July 2017.

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Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 3:24, 11 July 2017

Thank you very much, Llyr, for those questions. With regard to setting fee levels, what I've always said consistently in this Chamber is that I will take a number of factors into consideration when addressing that point. Those factors have included the state of the Welsh Government's own finances, the impact on students, and, indeed, the state of the finances of the sector as a whole. Only earlier today, in First Minister’s questions, we had one of your colleagues talk about the challenges in Bangor, and potential job losses in Bangor. Your colleague sitting next to you, Simon Thomas, is often concerned—rightly so—about job losses in the higher education sector in his own area, and I’ve had to take a number of factors, including decisions taken across the border in England, with regard to fee levels. But what is important, I think, to remember is that fee loans are only payable after graduation, and only once graduates are earning £21,000, and they are indeed written off after 30 years. So, those people who benefit the most economically from going on to a higher education course pay the most back. Welsh students are also unique in the sense that they are eligible for up to £1,500 to be written off the balance of their loans once they start a repayment programme. That is unique to Wales, and it’s my intention to continue to do that.

But let’s be absolutely clear about the work of the NUS with regard to ‘The Pound in Your Pocket’, and the concerns that students have expressed, families have expressed, that it is the day-to-day living costs that are the largest barrier for people going on to study at higher education level and, crucially, staying in higher education. If you look at the situation across the border in England, where there are no grants available—regardless of what your background is, there is no financial help for the day-to-day living costs—it is students from a poorer background who disproportionately drop out after their first year at university. I never—I never—want to see a Welsh student who is capable of sustaining themselves academically on a HE course have to drop out because of day-to-day living costs. We are unique—unique—in the system that we are delivering for Welsh students today.

As regards the Labour manifesto, it’s not for me to defend the manifesto of the Labour Party, but the Welsh Labour manifesto in the Assembly elections last year said that Welsh students would not be put at a disadvantage and they would be better off than English students, and that manifesto commitment, along with our party’s manifesto commitment, is honoured here today. Welsh fees will still be lower at Welsh universities than those Welsh students are paying in English institutions and Welsh students are paying to attend Scottish universities. Let’s be absolutely clear about that.

Llyr, you quoted the IFS. Well, let me be clear about what the IFS has said about student finance, and I quote:

‘bringing back maintenance grants would have the advantage of allowing government to target specific students or courses that have wider benefits to society…the government’— they were referring to Westminster—

‘should put more weight on the latter rather than the former’,

i.e., reducing fees. That’s the approach they should take to making policy. We are doing exactly what independent experts say we need to do in this country.

Incidentally, with regard to inflation linking fees, that’s exactly what your party did when you were in Government here in this National Assembly for Wales. That’s exactly what you did. [Interruption.] It’s exactly what—[Interruption.] It’s exactly what you did. [Interruption.] True, Simon. True. Very true, Simon. It’s very, very true. The fee level—[Interruption.] And I’m sure, Simon, when you were the special adviser in the Government, you did it for the very same reasons that I’m doing it today, to support the sector.

The fees—[Interruption.] The fees—[Interruption.] If I could go on to answer the rest of Llyr’s questions, the fees will apply to the entire cohort from 2018-19. With regard to the living wage, can I say that I am delighted by the announcement of Universities Wales yesterday that Wales will become the first HE sector to move to being a living-wage employer? This is really important, because, up until now, with the exception of Cardiff University and the Open University, that was not the case. This is good news for the lowest-paid workers in the sector working in institutions the length and breadth of Wales, and it is only right that we do so. We cannot advocate for a living wage for students when the people who are cleaning the lecture theatres, the halls of residence and the toilets are not treated in the same way. I am delighted—I am delighted, absolutely delighted—that Universities Wales has made progress in this area when they have not been willing to do so. But there is more to be done—there is absolutely more to be done—with regard to transparency with the higher levels of pay within the institutions, and I continue to have a very productive dialogue with Universities Wales about the importance of this issue, transparency around this issue, and I hope that I will be back in the Chamber before too long to make another positive announcement in that regard. I’ll continue to have those discussions with them.

The Member talks about the future of the coleg. As the Member will know, I removed the budget for the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol out of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales this year to protect funding for the very important work that the college does, because I was concerned that because of the strains on HE finance, the work of the coleg might be undermined. So, we’ve taken specific steps to protect that funding in this year, and I await with interest the report of Delyth Evans that will give this Government some independent advice on the future of the coleg, and how the coleg’s role should be developed going forward.

With regard to this issue of getting people to come back to Wales, there are things outside my portfolio that we need to do. We need job opportunities for those people to come back to Wales. We need affordable housing in parts of Wales, so that people can come back and afford to buy houses and raise their families there. But our commitment to this is absolutely clear in the establishment of our interim postgraduate loan measures. Those postgraduate—. Not loans, sorry; everybody can get a loan. Those postgraduate grant measures will only be available to those people who come back to study in Wales. And that’s a commitment and an indication of how I want to be able to use public resources to incentivise those who will come back and contribute. As I said in answer to Darren Millar, we’re already working with Vaughan Gething with regard to nurses in that regard. I’m looking to explore it with regards to additional learning needs and other opportunities.