<p>Group 5: Coming into Force (Amendment 8)</p>

9. 8. Stage 3 of the Trade Union (Wales) Bill – in the Senedd at 8:09 pm on 11 July 2017.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 8:09, 11 July 2017

(Translated)

The next group, and the final group, of amendments is the amendment relating to coming into force. Amendment 8 is the lead and only amendment in this group, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the amendment.

(Translated)

Amendment 8 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Photo of Janet Finch-Saunders Janet Finch-Saunders Conservative 8:09, 11 July 2017

Diolch, Llywydd. I move amendment 8. Our final amendment seeks to ensure that a full analysis of the true impact of this Bill will be undertaken before it is brought into effect. In essence, by undertaking an assessment of the impact of the UK Government's Trade Union Act, the Welsh Government and the National Assembly for Wales will be able to make a more informed judgment on the impact that this Bill would have, rather than bringing it forward with no in-depth analysis just for the sake of pushing through legislation.

The Welsh Conservatives are in favour of legislative review in other areas, notably recently in the Land Transaction Tax and Anti-avoidance of Devolved Taxes (Wales) Act 2017, and the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Bill. In this instance, many provisions of the Trade Union Act 2016 only came into force in March 2017, and therefore it is important that the National Assembly for Wales is provided equally with the chance of assessment before its own legislation is taken forward. Thank you.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru 8:10, 11 July 2017

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru will be voting against amendment 8 in group 5, which has been tabled in the name of Janet Finch-Saunders, because it does restrict the Government from introducing the Bill until an impact assessment has been completed and reported back to the Assembly. This is an entirely transparent attempt by the Conservatives to prevent the Bill from passing before the Wales Act is enacted. Under the current powers model, the Assembly has the right to pass the Bill before the Assembly today, but when the Wales Act comes into force, the new powers model will mean that the Assembly won’t have the powers to do that, because industrial relations will be a matter reserved to Westminster.

When Plaid Cymru voted against the Wales Bill in January of this year, we did so because we were of the view that that legislation would roll back powers from this Assembly. Unfortunately, the fact that we are having to pass this trade union Bill before that Act comes into force proves that we were right in that regard. Therefore, Plaid Cymru will vote against this amendment, and we will vote against and oppose any future attempt by the Conservatives in Westminster to take more powers from our national Parliament.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 8:12, 11 July 2017

(Translated)

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

So, Llywydd, the mover of the amendment says that there’s been no in-depth analysis that lies behind this Bill. Let me just remind Members here of the whole debate that took place in the last Assembly; the efforts that the First Minister made to persuade UK Ministers not to press ahead by trespassing into devolved responsibilities; the LCM that was passed here on the floor of this Assembly, seeking to deny the UK Government the power to act in areas for which they have no responsibility. Let me remind Members here of the manifesto commitments of more than one party here in this Assembly, both at the National Assembly elections a year ago and at the recent general election.

We’ve heard the usual Tory attempt this afternoon, Llywydd, to imply that somehow the motivation behind this Bill is simply the relationship between my party and the trade union movement, a relationship of which we are immensely proud. But what actually lies behind the Bill is the manifesto commitments that we stood on, that were endorsed by people here in Wales, that are shared by more than one party in this Assembly, and which give us the democratic mandate and the authority to put this Bill before the National Assembly. What about the evidence from the public consultation on agency workers? What about the consistent evidence provided to the committee during its Stage 1 consideration? What about the information set out in the explanatory memorandum and the regulatory impact assessment provided and revised ahead of the Stage 3 debate? And more than all of that, Llywydd, what about the evidence of how industrial relations have been successfully conducted here in Wales?

It takes a lot of gall to be a Conservative Member of this Assembly when you ae prepared to argue that the record of industrial relations here in Wales—no firefighters on strike; no teachers on strike; no nurses on strike; no doctors on strike; no physiotherapists on strike; no occupational therapists on strike, all those people that their party have succeeded in driving into industrial action in England and our record here in Wales provides every bit of evidence that any reasonable person would need to show that the approach we have taken here in Wales not only is the right one, but it is the successful one as well. Llywydd, I have tried, during this afternoon, to respond to the substance of the amendments put in front of the Assembly in previous groups, but let me say, for this group, it is simply an attempt to wreck the Bill. It’s simply an attempt by the back door to make sure that the things that have been argued for on this side, by others in the Assembly, consistently supported during the passage of this Bill—at the last minute, there will be an attempt to overturn all of that by a device that is transparent to anybody who cares to look at it. It’s a final attempt to try and make sure that we are unable to carry on doing things here in Wales in the way that this Assembly has endorsed and that trade unionists and employers have come in front of the Assembly to tell us has been one of the successes of the devolution era. Let’s defeat this amendment as well and get this Bill onto the statute book.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 8:16, 11 July 2017

(Translated)

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Photo of Janet Finch-Saunders Janet Finch-Saunders Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. Many of the answers, of course, from the Cabinet Secretary and those giving evidence at Stages 1 and 2 of this Bill were simply not sufficiently evidence-based for us to make an independent assessment of the impact of this Bill. For example, going back to amendment 1, we were told continually that the cost for check-off was minimal, without anyone being able to provide an actual figure. Yet we know from the Cabinet Office analysis that it costs a net £9.7 million annually across the UK, which equates to around £0.5 million here in Wales. Further, the explanatory memorandum brought forward by the Welsh Government—. So, there is definitely scope for further analysis in relation to the costings and impact of this Bill and the UK Act. Review and scrutiny are essential to making good legislation, both in analysing that which is already in practice, and in better informing that which we are looking to make.

Given the rush to push through this particular Bill, I do think we need to pause and consider the long-term impacts here, and an assessment of the UK Act is essential to this. Further, this will allow for complete clarity in terms of legislative competence, something which I and my colleagues on these benches feel we do not yet have. It is fair to say there has been some ambiguity in this area. As the UK Bill made its way through the Westminster Parliament, the Welsh Government contested that some of its provisions should not extend to devolved public services, and vowed to bring forward its own legislation to disapply those provisions in Wales at the earliest opportunity—as if that is the main priority for this Welsh Government when you consider the health of our health service, the poor standards in our education—which is where we are now.

The UK Government has continued to argue that trade union law is non-devolved, and so it is highly likely that a third piece of Welsh legislation is going to end up in the Supreme Court via a UK Government referral. This represents an expensive waste of taxpayers’ money for legislation that is unnecessary, regressive and represents little more than a Welsh Government vanity project. What a shame to see thousands of pounds of taxpayers’ money used on a court case over competence, just to realise how incompetent the Welsh Labour Government is because we were in such a rush to pass this Bill. Llywydd, the UK Government’s Trade Union Act 2016 demonstrates the forward-thinking nature of the rest of the UK. In this context, Wales simply cannot be seen as going backwards.

I can tell you now, it doesn’t take gall to be a Welsh Conservative; it takes honesty, courage, conviction, principle and morals. I am extremely proud to be a Welsh Conservative, and I’m extremely proud to challenge and scrutinise this legislation, and I would do so any time, any place, and again. Thank you.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 8:19, 11 July 2017

(Translated)

The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We’ll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 12, no abstentions, 42 against. Therefore, amendment 8 is not agreed.

(Translated)

Amendment 8 not agreed: For 12, Against 42, Abstain 0.

(Translated)

Result of the vote on amendment 8.

Division number 405 Amendment 8

Aye: 12 MSs

No: 42 MSs

Aye: A-Z by last name

No: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 8:20, 11 July 2017

(Translated)

We have therefore reached the end of our stage 3 consideration of the Trade Union (Wales) Bill, and I declare that all sections of, and Schedules to, the Bill are deemed agreed. That brings the Stage 3 proceedings and today’s proceedings to a close.

(Translated)

All sections of the Bill deemed agreed.

(Translated)

The meeting ended at 20:20.