3. What discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government regarding the Welsh Government's 'Brexit and Fair Movement of People' policy document? (OAQ51052) 

They have not wished to have any discussions, though we have sent them the document.

The First Minister has, though, it seems, had discussions with the First Minister of Scotland and development of joint strategy and approach with the Scottish Government. Does the First Minister not appreciate that Wales voted ‘leave’ in the referendum? He said himself that had a lot to do with free movement of people, yet his document here is supporting free movement of people in all but name. Instead of continuing to import people to run our NHS, should we not be training up people here in Wales, and why, after 20 years of Labour-led Government, does this document say that substantial work is still needed to do that?

Why have we got foreigners in our NHS? That’s what he’s saying, in effect, isn’t it? That’s what this is about. The national health service, like the health service of any other country in the developed world, always relies on doctors from other countries. I don’t care where doctors are from as long as they’re good and they deliver services for our people. That’s what counts at the end of the day. I’m not interested in where they were born; I’m interested in their medical skills. That’s what I have to say to him.

Yes, I’ve spoken to the First Minister of Scotland on this issue. Again, I say to him the interpretation that he and his former party put on the vote last year is not an interpretation I share. All we know is that people voted to leave the EU. They did not vote for a hard Brexit. They were given the opportunity to vote for a hard Brexit in June; they did not vote for a hard Brexit, and so it falls on all of us in this Chamber to try to interpret the viewpoint that people had on that. But I have to say nobody said to me on the doorstep—not one person, even people who were the hardest supporters of Brexit imaginable—‘What we need are fewer doctors from abroad in this country’. Nobody said that. And so, this is, in this document, an attempt to put forward a viewpoint on how migration can be made to work in the future. We’ve heard nothing from his current party or his former party to add to that debate.

First Minister, when I recently met with farmers in Rhymney—yes, there are farmers in Rhymney—we discussed many issues relating to Brexit and its potential impact on the rural economy, and, contrary to the implications in Neil Hamilton’s question earlier, one particular concern that they had was their inability to be able to recruit labour locally—casual labour, seasonal labour—resulting in their reliance on a steady stream of EU migrant labour. Would you agree with me that the availability of regulated seasonal labour from the EU is necessary in any agreement on the movement of people post Brexit?

Well, it is hugely important. We know, otherwise, that there will be serious labour shortages in the agricultural industry, and that is something that has not yet been properly addressed by the UK Government. It comes back to this point again: we need an immigration policy that’s sensible, that’s fair, that’s balanced, and we believe, in the document that we’ve produced on Brexit and migration, that we’ve done just that. I don’t accept that people voted to leave the EU and then decided to build a metaphorical or real fence around the UK while at the same time, of course, incidentally, keeping the open border with the EU in the Republic of Ireland, which is something that has never been resolved. So, this is a way forward that we believe is sensible, fair, and meets, of course, the wishes of the people of Wales that were expressed in the referendum last year.

Does the First Minister not see that perhaps the reasons we seem to be reliant on migrant workers are twofold? Firstly, there’s little incentive to train local people for jobs when they can simply import ready-made, qualified workers. And, secondly, pay and conditions are so poor that it’s often only a migrant worker from a country with living standards that are worse than ours who is prepared to be exploited in this way. What are you going to do to reverse the reliance on EU workers and migrant workers?

Well, first of all, we all want to see improved pay and conditions, and it’s hugely important that we see the introduction of a proper living wage across our economy, in the private sector as well, and important that we have a UK Government that recognises the importance of that. But I am not obsessed with the idea that what we have to do is to chuck out as many foreign workers as possible, which is effectively what she is saying. And that interpretation is not shared by the people of Wales, as shown by the fact that her party—I don’t know if she’s still in the party or not—received such a low percentage of the vote in the election. Does it not tell you something that the kind of Brexit that you support is not supported by the people of Wales, and we saw that in June?