5. 4. Statement: The EU (Withdrawal) Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:05 pm on 19 September 2017.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 4:05, 19 September 2017

First of all, we’ve been working with the Scottish Government now for many months, and that work has resulted in the amendments we’ve seen today. Also, of course, we’ve talked to Governments such as Gibraltar, who are in a slightly different position in the sense that they are in the EU but outside of the customs union, but, nevertheless, very concerned about Brexit and what it might mean for them. The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey—we’ll see them at the British-Irish Council. Again, they’re in a position where they’re outside the EU but inside the customs union, and they will be taken out of the customs union without their consent if the UK does choose to leave the customs union. We argue, of course, as she does, that that is not actually necessary.

In terms of the LCM process, David Davis has said that he wants the consent of the devolved legislatures. That consent cannot be on the basis that it can only be consent the UK Government agrees with. It must be a fully informed consent, and they must accept that, if this Assembly does not consent, they will have to accept that. What we’ve offered, of course, is a way to try to avoid that—to talk and to get to a position where the obstacles that prevent us from giving consent from a devolution angle are removed, and so the LCM becomes more palatable to Members than it is now. So far, those discussions haven’t taken place and there have been—well, they have taken place, but no progress has occurred as a result.

If this Assembly decides to refuse consent, well, the UK Government could override it. That creates a severe constitutional crisis in my view. How can it be possible to respect devolution on the one hand, and to say to us, ‘Well, we want your consent, but, if you don’t give it, we’ll ignore you anyway’? There are many in the House of Commons in all parties who will take a view on that; I’m sure the Scottish Conservatives will take a view on that. And I’m sure there’ll be many in the Lords who will view with grave concern the idea that constitutional change should be—no, not constitutional change, but the removal of powers from Wales and Scotland should go ahead despite the opposition of the democratic parliaments of Wales and Scotland. So, there is much here that can lead to a crisis. It’s a crisis that I’m particularly keen to avoid. It’s a crisis that can be avoided. I don’t think that the current UK Government strategy, it seems to me, of fighting as many people on as many fronts as possible, is the sensible way of dealing with Brexit. We have offered a way of looking at these issues, coming to an agreement on the journey and the destination, which I believe can be done, whilst protecting, of course, the devolution settlement. That is an important principle as far as I am concerned, as far as she is concerned, and, I’m sure, all Members are concerned. Brexit’s going to happen; we know that. But it was never intended, surely, that Brexit would interfere with the natural movement of powers between Brussels and Wales, and that’s exactly what we are trying to avoid while, at the same time, of course, creating the certainty that we understand that businesses and citizens need.