In light of events in Catalonia, what discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government as part of the UK-EU Brexit negotiations regarding the rights of sub-state governments to act autonomously without being restricted by the state government? (TAQ0042)

Llywydd, the Joint Ministerial Committee on European Negotiations has been established as the forum where devolved Governments can seek to influence UK-EU Brexit negotiations. I represent the Welsh Government on that JMC. Events in Catalonia, to which this question refers, have not been discussed at a meeting of the committee.

At the heart of this question, of course, is the fundamental right of nations to self-determination, which is indeed enshrined in the UN charter, and as the tectonic plates are shifting around us in these islands, in the European mainland, and across the world, it is increasingly under threat from a sort of irredentist power grab from the central state, as they themselves feel their supremacy challenged. I’ve heard the Cabinet Secretary refer to the almost neo-colonialist attitudes you hear at the joint ministerial council when Brexit is discussed. This question is, of course, as he alludes, inspired by the terrible events that we’re seeing in Catalonia, and Members will be troubled to hear that in the last few hours the Guardia Civil, the Spanish state police, have raided the Generalitat, the headquarters of the Catalan Government. The Catalan President has declared that Catalan autonomy is effectively now suspended by the Spanish state.

Can I urge the Cabinet Secretary to do what the Scottish Government has done, to send a message of solidarity to the Catalan people and the Catalan Government, as they stand there now in front of the Generalitat, declaiming, ‘No tinc por’?

Does dim ofn.

We are not afraid. Let’s say with them that we’re not afraid either. We stand with them, and with the people of Kurdistan that are also people being threatened by a referendum that will be prevented by the Iraqi state Government on Monday as well. We stand in solidarity with all peoples of the world that ask only for this: the right to choose their own future.

Llywydd, the Member very passionately puts his view of the situation, as he’s absolutely entitled to do, and has drawn our attention to the concerning reports of the developing situation in Catalunya. The Welsh Government is absolutely clear: we believe in democratic principles and think that they should be respected. Democratic politics is the basis for resolving constitutional issues. What I’m not able to do is to act as though the Welsh Government had responsibility for the conduct of relationships with other European states or indeed with states elsewhere in the world. That is not a responsibility devolved to us and we mustn’t put ourselves in the position that makes it appear as though we think that would be the case.

The European Union’s own external action service website states that the EU believes that democracy is the only political system that can fully realise all human rights. Would it not be a useful exercise for the Welsh Government to encourage the United Kingdom Government to remind Spain, as a member state of the European Union, that it should live up to the principles that the European Union’s external action service said are embedded in the founding treaties, reinforced by the charter of fundamental rights, and that are fully declared as a result of the Lisbon treaty incorporating that charter into European law? A Government, like the Government of Spain, that is afraid of the votes of its own people at the ballot box is a precarious institution indeed, and this Assembly, of all institutions, ought to stand up for the rights of small peoples or small nations to self-determination, if that is what they wish. Like the Cabinet Secretary, I believe in the United Kingdom, but if the people of Wales were to vote for political independence, that is a right that should be expected and Catalonia deserves nothing less than that.

The Member helpfully draws attention to the statements that exist within the European Union and elsewhere, and that is reflected entirely in what I said that, as a Welsh Government, we believe in the respect of democratic principles and democratic politics as the way to resolve constitutional and other disputes. But the Member is also right to say that these are responsibilities of the UK Government. That Government will hear what other parties and other elected politicians say and it’s right that people use this forum to make those views known. The Welsh Government has to respect the responsibilities that have been devolved to us and that’s what I intend to do.

I’m very disappointed to hear the response of the Cabinet Secretary. I know that he has a sense of history and I suspect that what he’s telling us doesn’t sit comfortably on his shoulders, given the relationship between Wales and Catalunya and the wider relationship between the progressive peoples of Wales and Catalunya, going back over 75 years. All we’re asking for from the Welsh Government is no more than what FC Barcelona has stated themselves:

‘to democracy, to freedom of speech, and to self-determination’, and to condemn

‘any act that may impede the free exercise of these rights.’

If a football club in the capital city of Catalunya can say that, then I think that the Welsh Government can say it—just standing in solidarity with a similar devolved Government that, at this moment, is having its offices raided, its members harassed and whose Parliament is being challenged by a central Spanish state. I know that I’ve had support for an open letter to go to the Presiding Officer of the Catalan Parliament from many Members here. I intend to send that this evening. I hope that other Members will take the opportunity, finally, to support that as I think we should at least stand, as a Parliament, shoulder to shoulder with other Parliaments, to simply say that you have the right to ask your people what their future should be.

I entirely agree with the Member about the long history of close relationships between Wales and Catalunya and between organisations that operate here in Wales and operate in Catalunya. The First Minister himself met representatives from Catalunya within the last couple of years. Nothing that I’ve said this afternoon should be read as detracting from our concern at the reports that are emanating from Catalunya or our support for the resolution of disputes by proper democratic, political means. And it is uncomfortable. The Member is right to say that sometimes it is uncomfortable, but the position I feel like I have to defend and depart from him slightly—. He said that the Parliament here could make its views known. That is certainly possible, but I’m being asked to make the Government’s position known, and I’m a member of a Government where, with our Scottish counterparts, we are involved in a very deep dispute with the UK Government in which the UK Government is seeking to trespass into responsibilities that have been devolved to this institution. And, if there is a principle about people respecting where responsibilities lie, I’m just not going to cross a line in which I put myself in a position of appearing to say things as though I had responsibilities, or the Welsh Government had responsibilities, for the conduct of relationships with other European Union states, when we plainly do not.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.