I am very uncomfortable with the proposal to build a large prison in Port Talbot and with the political games that are accompanying it. I don’t buy the argument that this is a non-devolved issue. This is about the type of country we want Wales to be, and Monday’s announcement of a commission on justice in Wales, led by Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the current Lord Chief Justice, offers us an opportunity to have greater devolution of the judicial system in Wales and also to have the debate about the kind of picture that Welsh justice looks like. I’d like to see a prison system that doesn’t warehouse people but focuses on rehabilitation. That is my strong instinct, but in reflecting on what to say in today’s debate I looked at some of the evidence, and the evidence is mixed. I think we do need to weigh the importance of keeping prisoners close to their families with the other evidence that shows that separating offenders from their peer group can help with the cycle of reoffending. Evidence shows that prisoners in newer prisons have better outcomes than those housed in older prisons, and this is a much bigger factor in recidivism than the size of the institution. Many argue that larger prisons are too impersonal to support effective rehabilitation, whilst others argue that the economies of scale provided by larger prisons mean better and wider training and employment facilities can be provided. So, the evidence is mixed.

The economic case isn’t clear cut either. People argue—