Thank you very much. We now move to spokespersons’ questions, and I call Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Steffan Lewis.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Yesterday, the Welsh Government published the detail of its draft budget, including detailed budget expenditure line tables for 2018-19 and 2019-20. In the last 24 hours, a number of organisations have expressed concern regarding the Supporting People budget line in light of that budget line in particular disappearing in the 2019-20 budget table. Plaid Cymru, of course, understands those very real concerns as it formed a central part of our budget agreement with Welsh Government. Could the Cabinet Secretary take this opportunity to clarify the status of the Supporting People grant for both financial years, and can he particularly elaborate on the relationship between the Supporting People grant and the local government revenue support grant for both those financial years, in light of the fact that hypothecation will disappear?

Well, Deputy Presiding Officer, thank you very much for the question and congratulations first of all to Steffan Lewis for his new responsibility here in the Chamber.

Rwy’n falch iawn o gael cyfle i ateb y cwestiwn hwnnw. Gadewch imi ddechrau, Dirprwy Lywydd, drwy ddweud yn glir nad oes toriadau i’r rhaglen Cefnogi Pobl yn unrhyw un o flynyddoedd y gyllideb a gyflwynwyd i’r Cynulliad hwn, a dyna ganlyniad y cytundeb a wnaed rhwng Plaid Cymru a minnau yn y cyfnod cyn ei gyflwyno. Y flwyddyn nesaf, bydd Cefnogi Pobl yn parhau i fod yn grant unigol ar wahân fel y nodir yn y tablau a gyhoeddwyd ddoe. Ceir cynnig, a fydd yn cael ei drafod a’i ddatblygu gydag awdurdodau lleol a’r sector, i ddod â nifer o grantiau ynghyd yn yr ail flwyddyn. Mae’r swm o arian sydd ar gael ar gyfer Cefnogi Pobl yn yr ail flwyddyn honno fel y cytunwyd. Nid oes toriadau iddo. Yr achos dros ddod â meysydd cysylltiedig ynghyd yw y byddant yn caniatáu mwy o ddisgresiwn proffesiynol wrth ddefnyddio arian ar y rheng flaen ac yn lleihau’r swm o arian a ddefnyddir yn y grant ar gyfer gweinyddu. Fodd bynnag, gwn fod Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros Gymunedau a Phlant yn cydnabod yr angen i allu parhau i ddangos sut y bydd yr arian yn cael ei ddefnyddio, a bydd yn trafod ffyrdd o sicrhau bod hynny’n digwydd fel rhan o’i ymgysylltiad â’r sector, gan barhau o drafodaethau lle y trafodwyd hyn yn benodol yng nghyfarfod bwrdd cynghori cenedlaethol Cefnogi Pobl ar 21 Medi.

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. So, to clarify, the removal of the ring fence—and I understand that this will be piloted in the next financial year—and the discretion in pilot areas will not allow local authorities therefore to underspend, so to speak, on the Supporting People grant. Can he clarify and confirm that the merger, so to speak, with other grant streams will, in fact, be complementary rather than competing, and that, in that case, every single penny allocated and guaranteed for the Supporting People grant for the next financial year and the one after will be spent on Supporting People projects?

I think the Member makes a very good point in the way that he puts it, that the grants are being brought together because they are complementary. They all operate in the area of early intervention and prevention. Dirprwy Lywydd, I should have answered the point that Steffan Lewis made in his first question to me: the proposal is not for Supporting People grant to go into the RSG. It’s not going into the unhypothecated part of the settlement; it is going to remain in a hypothecated grant, where the mechanics of how that grant will function in the future will be worked out in the engagement with the sector itself, where local authorities will have to produce delivery plans and where grant payments will be made in arrears, subject to that delivery. So, there will be a very clear mechanism through which the money that we have agreed and which will be there in both years—there will be a very clear mechanism for tracking it and making sure that it is being used for the intended purpose.

That’s a very important point, of course. I’m glad to hear the clarification that hypothecation will remain in a form. However, the fact that the budget line in particular for the Supporting People grant disappears in the second year raises questions on how we can ensure that we can scrutinise fully and properly as elected representatives, but also in terms of the sector as a whole, that that money, which is allocated and is being protected because of the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government, is actually being spent on what it is intended for. So, the Cabinet Secretary, now that he has clarified that the merger with other grants will not lead to a diminishing sum for the Supporting People projects and that it is a form of hypothecation, albeit in a different accounting form, so to speak, can he go on the record and clarify that we will be able to scrutinise that that is actually what is being delivered on the ground, even in the absence of a specific Supporting People grant budget line in Welsh Government books?

I understand that if the Cabinet Secretary responsible does decide to amalgamate the grants into a single grant stream, it will be important that the actions that flow from that grant stream can be monitored—that they can be monitored internally by the department, that they can be monitored by the project group and that they can be reported in a way that allows Assembly Members here to see how money that is allocated through agreements we reach here is then put to work on the ground, and the detail of how the mechanics of the grant will function in future. I know that the Cabinet Secretary, Carl Sargeant, is keen to make sure that those mechanics are agreed with the sector and with local government so that their transparency can be secured.

Thank you very much. Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure that you would agree with me—in fact, you’ve stated it many times here in the Senedd—that openness and transparency and good councillor conduct are key to engagement with our political democracy and to attracting people to have faith in our political system, ultimately then helping us to attract more people to stand as candidates. Sadly, however, I have an e-mail here, sent by a Swansea Labour councillor, Mark Child, to colleagues in your Labour Party and it was sent from his council e-mail address. I’ll be sending you a copy of the said e-mail, but I will read a very short extract:

Hi David et al, Next full council is Thursday 26th of October…There is an opportunity to ask questions from the public gallery at full council.’

It goes on to ask party colleagues to help find members of the public to ask a range of questions on their behalf. In relation to one question on cycle paths, the councillor asks,

Could someone ask whose idea this was so we can reply “this was Labour’s proposals for Bishopston”‘.

Member of the Senedd:

Is this really your question?

Yes, I think you need to come to a question.

Do you think this kind of thing helps the public to have confidence in local government? As the Cabinet member—[Interruption.]—with responsibility for local government, will you investigate this blatant and utter disregard for due procedure and for making a mockery of the public questions available in some local authorities?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I look forward to seeing the e-mail in full. So far as I’ve been able to understand it from listening to it, I hear a publicly elected person encouraging the idea that members of the public might come and ask questions at a public hearing of the council. I’m struggling, so far, to see what the difficulty with that would be, and I’m perfectly certain that all political parties here take the trouble to make sure that their members are informed and, when there are matters that are of interest to them, that they are able to come and take part in democratic forums.

I’m sorry, Cabinet Secretary, but I don’t think you understand local government proceedings. This is time allocated to members of the public who are then able to come along and scrutinise what they are genuinely interested in. It isn’t for a political party, of any colour, to actually feed questions to people to do that in order that they might score some kinds of political points. Frankly—and the fact that you’re laughing about this, I find it disgraceful of you as Cabinet Secretary, who should be, actually, embracing and encouraging true local democracy. This is an absolute mockery. Now, it is evident that the Labour Party is seeking to manipulate full council by drafting in stooges to ask planted questions. I actually hope that you will take this matter seriously. They should not be using their publicly funded office for party gain, and wouldn’t you agree with me that this is, in fact, a breach of councillor conduct and it should be referred to the standards committee? I’ll certainly be looking into it. Will you be asking your colleague, even the First Minister if you’re not prepared to, to investigate this conduct? But will you, at the very least, condemn in the strongest terms any council in Wales, or any political party that has elected councillors in Wales, that subverts proper scrutiny in this way?

Let me begin by saying, Dirprwy Lywydd, that I think it is very important that all citizens in Wales who have an interest in the proceedings of democratic bodies are able to take part to the fullest available extent in the work of those bodies, in asking questions and in scrutinising people who take decisions on their behalf. If the Member believes that there has been some breach of proper procedure, then her tender interest in procedures would have led her to conclude that the right thing to do is to draw that breach to the attention of those authorities responsible for monitoring those breaches, not spraying around suggestions that it should be followed up by people who have no such responsibility. So, if she has a complaint, and she believes she has, she should report it in the proper way, and then make sure that it is investigated in a proper way. As I say, so far, from what I’ve heard her read out this afternoon, what I’ve heard her read out is members of the public being encouraged to come and take part in democratic debate.

Well, that, to me, just says that you’ve abrogated your responsibility as a Cabinet Secretary. These issues—[Interruption.] These issues partly explain the lack of public trust in politics, and I want to ask you about candidacy now in Wales, which is at crisis point. In September, the Electoral Commission reported that 7 per cent—that’s 7 per cent—of all county and borough seats were held unopposed at the elections in May. Now, 100 per cent of the town and community council seats in our capital city of Cardiff were uncontested or vacant in this year’s elections. Hoping to increase interest in candidacy through local government reform will not be enough. This is where nobody came forward and were encouraged to come forward to stand for seats in a democratic election in May. I think that, again, is a failure of this Welsh Labour Government. Will you commit your Government, going forward, to taking proactive steps to tackle this democratic—? And just for all the muttering of the backbenchers: at the end of the day, as I’ve said on many occasions, we haven’t had the chance yet to lead on some of the portfolios here that are held by Welsh Labour Members, but I’m telling you now that I can tell you that if Welsh Conservatives were leading local government in Wales, I can assure the members of the public there would be more openness, democracy and democratic accountability.

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I share the Member’s anxiety at the number of uncontested seats in town and community councils in Wales in May’s elections. I want us to do more as a Government, but it is not just for governments to be taking action in that regard. In our principal council elections, there were more candidates than ever before, and that’s a sign that efforts can be successful in bringing more people forward for election. I’m very proud to be a member of a party that fielded many hundreds more candidates than her party fielded in those elections. I say to her that just as Government does have a responsibility to make sure that the position of a town and community councillor is made attractive and is widely advertised, we, all of us as separate political parties, have a responsibility to try and encourage people to stand for election, and the fact that there were no elections to town and community councils in Cardiff is as much a reflection on her party’s inability to find people to stand for those posts as it is of any other political party.

Thank you. UKIP spokesperson Gareth Bennett.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. We had a panel from the Welsh Local Government Association in committee this morning, Minister, discussing matters relating to the draft budget. We all know that these are difficult times for local government funding, but one thing that would help councils to take decisions is some certainty of future funding levels. I know you have provided an indicative budget for 2019-20, so we have moved to a two-year cycle. The situation in Scotland is that they effectively have a three-year cycle. The WLGA are calling for a multi-year settlement and say that a three-year settlement would be a great help for their forward planning. What’s your response to that?

Well, I say this to the Member: I share the WLGA’s ambition for a three-year cycle—I wish I was in a position to do that for them—but we do not have a Welsh Government budget for the third year of this cycle because there has been no comprehensive spending review by the incoming Government, elected in June of this year, and in circumstances where I simply do not know how much money we will have available to use for all public services in Wales, I cannot give local government a sensible and reliable indicative budget for that third year. I wish I was in a position to do that, because I understand the points that they made to you and that you made this afternoon about that helping them to be able to plan.

I made a judgment, Dirprwy Lywydd, that it was possible to provide a firm budget for next year and a reliably indicative budget for the second year in the budget that I laid on 3 October. Without the figures that I need from the UK Government about what the shape of the Welsh Government’s budget will be in the third year, I simply didn’t have reliable enough information to be able to give local government figures on which they could plan properly.

Yes, thanks for clarifying that. Of course, that lack of information would make it very difficult, so I take it that the situation regarding the UK Government and Scotland is therefore different from the situation regarding the UK Government and local government funding in Wales. Continuing with the theme of the financing of local government, you’ve stressed in the past to the WLGA the need to seek alternative sources of income. The WLGA say that this is currently easier for councils in England to achieve due to their power of general competence. We heard today that English councils have invested in petrol stations, in superstores and, in London, they even own their own shopping centres. If councils in Wales had the power of general competence, would this more entrepreneurial route be a good route for them to go down, do you think, or would there be too many potential drawbacks?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I am keen to provide local authorities in Wales with a general power of competence. It was included in the draft Bill published during the last Assembly term and was widely welcomed by local authorities. It is one of the reasons why I’m keen to press ahead with local government reforms so we can bring a Bill in front of this Assembly that will provide local authorities in Wales with exactly that ability. I think they will want to look carefully at some of the ways in which those powers have been used across our border. I think that there are some positive lessons that can be learned from things that local authorities there may have been able to do. Some of the more speculative investments that have been made, of the sort that Mr Bennett outlined, are giving rise to some concerns in some parts of England about whether taxpayers’ money has been reliably invested and whether it will give local taxpayers a proper return. Sometimes it’s lucky to be going second in something because you are able to gain from the experience of those who’ve gone first. This is an area where I think Welsh local government will be able to reflect on the experience across our border, use the new power we are keen to give them where they can do it to advantage, but maybe not to be drawn into some areas of activity where proper returns and the levels of probity that we would expect may not be so easy to guarantee.

Yes, thank you. That, of course—. I think you need to have some kind of thought to the possible disadvantages, which you’ve outlined, so I think that’s a sensible answer.

Now, another development in England—[Interruption.] Another development in England is that at least one council has successfully set up a not-for-profit energy company. That is the Robin Hood Energy company in Nottingham. Now, if these powers of general competence did come to Wales, do you think that would be an idea that some local councils could effectively pursue here?

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, there is a very long and proud history in Wales, dating back many years—and particularly during the inter-war years—of municipal socialism, in which local authorities were indeed the direct suppliers of utility services like water and like energy. Now, I am keen to see some of that spirit reinvented in the modern era. You can’t do it exactly as it was done then, but finding new ways in which local authorities can provide services, which make sure that those—and this is the case in the Nottinghamshire scheme, isn’t it? The scheme is focused on making sure that those who have the least ability to pay bills are not further disadvantaged by being drawn into the most expensive forms of tariff. By organising it on a public basis and a not-for-profit distribution basis, it is more possible to make sure that tariffs are available that protect those who need that protection the most. I’m sure there will be some Welsh local authorities who will want to look at that experience and see whether they will be able to do more of that sort here in Wales.

Thank you very much. Question 3—Adam Price.