Group 1. Advice and information (Amendments 1, 4, 5, 28, 6, 7, 8, 9, 14, 15)

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:40 pm on 21 November 2017.

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Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative 4:40, 21 November 2017

Off to a blazing start, Llywydd—off to a blazing start. [Laughter.] Can I thank Llyr Huws Gruffydd for his support for all of the amendments that I've tabled in this group? And can I start on an area of agreement, Cabinet Secretary, if I can? And that is that, given that amendment 28 achieves precisely the policy aim of amendment 4, I'm more than happy not to move my amendment 4 and to support amendment 28 instead. Both you and I agree on one thing, and that is that we must make sure that there's independent advice and that that is not tainted in any way by local authorities in a way that does a disservice to the children and young people that we want this Bill to support and to help. In terms of an accessible version of the code, you set out very clearly that that code is there for professionals, not for children and young people; it's for the use of professionals. But the reality is that, if we want people to know what their rights are, if we want people to be able to access the support that they should be entitled to, then people have to be able to understand the whole of the system in its entirety, and sometimes that might mean that they want access to more of the detail, not just the information and advice leaflets, for example, that might be available from a local authority. So, I'm afraid I will still be wishing to move amendment 4 and to put that to the vote, because I think it is an important principle. I know that you agree that information should be available, but I do think that having an accessible version of the code is one way of making sure that that information is readily available to children and young people in a national format, available across the whole of the country. Because let's not forget: at the moment, as it stands, each individual local education authority will be able to produce different versions of the code—of the information and advice literature that they might want to distribute, rather—and that, I think, will take away, perhaps, some of the levelling that can by done by having a national, accessible version of the code for children and young people.

I'm also a little disappointed that you've rejected recommendation 5 on key transitions and making sure that people are prompted with the fact that there is an additional learning needs system at those key transitions, because, of course, as I said earlier, this was a recommendation of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We studied the code in detail, we heard evidence from a range of stakeholders, and they were very clear that they felt that it was worth reminding people, at those key transitions—and not just at the point of key decisions, which is the phrase that you used—that there are support services available, particularly advocacy services, should they require them. Now, that could be someone moving from one area to another; it could mean someone moving up a school within an existing local authority area; it could mean people progressing from primary to secondary or secondary on to a further education institution. And I think it is important, actually, to make sure that people are reminded of the availability of information on the additional learning system that we will hopefully have as a result of this important legislation at those key points of transition.

I also note that you're going to encourage people to reject amendments 6, 7, 8, 9, 14 and 15. You've quite rightly agreed with my policy objective here, and that is that people are fully informed prior to making a choice to not give consent to have either an assessment or to receive any additional learning needs support. But I'm afraid my reading of sections 6 and 7 doesn't give me the same confident assurances that you have. It talks, yes, about giving people information, but doesn't necessarily say anything about specific information at the time that that young person is choosing not to consent. So, the Bill, as it's currently written, does potentially allow some abuse of those clauses, and that's why I've sought to improve them by inserting the words that that person must have

'been informed of the significance and implications of their decision' prior to that point of not giving their consent. So, I still want to move those as well, and I very much hope that Members will agree with the arguments I've put forward.