He talks about driving poor and vulnerable people into the red; the privatisation of energy was one way of doing that—we know that. His party stood on a programme of a flat tax, which would increase taxes for the vast majority of poorer people, and reduce them for people who are earning more. He's in no position to lecture anybody else about looking after poorer people. Let me ask him this—. At the end of the day, he doesn't believe in climate change. I do, he doesn't. I look at the science, he doesn't. That's the way that he sees it.

I believe that cleaning up the environment costs money. The UK was a mess in the 1980s; it was filthy. The River Irwell in Salford would catch fire if you threw a match into it. Where I live in Bridgend, the River Ogmore would run different colours according to what had been chucked into it by whatever industry was upriver. Nobody says to me, 'I want to go back to those days where the environment was degraded, where the rivers were polluted, where the air was polluted', but it seems to be something that he's more than happy to see again.