Emergency Question

– in the Senedd at 1:30 pm on 5 December 2017.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:30, 5 December 2017

(Translated)

I have accepted an emergency question under Standing Order 12.67, and I call on Mick Antoniw to ask the emergency question. Mick Antoniw. 

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 5 December 2017

(Translated)

Will the First Minister make a statement on the implications for Wales of bespoke border arrangements for Northern Ireland? (EAQ0001)

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:30, 5 December 2017

Well, we can't allow different parts of the UK to be more favourably treated than others. If one part of the UK is granted continued participation in the single market and customs union, then we fully expect to be made the same offer. Things seem to have moved on though. Where the UK Government was clearly looking to do a deal with the EU yesterday, that deal was torpedoed by the DUP, which asks the question why it is that a small party in Northern Ireland has the ability to have a veto over what is good for the UK in terms of negotiations with the EU. My colleague from behind says, 'That is not strong and stable'. I agree entirely with him. But, really, the question is this: is the Prime Minister really in charge of the UK, or is the UK in the charge of 10 MPs from Northern Ireland?

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 1:31, 5 December 2017

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. You , like me, might have been under the misapprehension that we were living in a parliamentary democracy, that Parliament was there to represent all the interests of all the parts of the United Kingdom, and we now find, First Minister, that it is apparently being run and dictated to by just 10 people, who have strong right-wing and homophobic views, historic links to terrorism, and who are opposed even to the majority decision of the people of Northern Ireland in respect of the European Union. So, when the people of Wales were encouraged to leave the European Union because it would make Parliament sovereign again, do you think this is what they had in mind?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

'No' is the answer. I don't think they had in mind a scenario where, first of all, the UK Government could be shaken down for £1.67 billion, and, secondly, the UK Government was not able to negotiate with the European Union because of a veto held by a small number of Members of Parliament. I don't think that's at all what people had in mind when they voted last year. 

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative 1:32, 5 December 2017

Clearly, as successive Welsh Governments know, working in coalitions, which you are a de facto head of, and we've had two previous Governments in coalition, that is the reality of coalition government. But, last night, the Taoiseach said, 'We don't want a border in the Irish sea.' At lunchtime today, David Davis stated in the House of Commons that they are now close to concluding the first phase of negotiations, bringing forward trade negotiations, and the Government does not want a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The UK Government recognises the integrity of the EU single market but also of UK borders, and that they will not be treating any part of the UK differently. He also noted that Labour Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, has said that staying in the single market would be interpreted as not respecting the referendum. 

Noting, therefore, that, last week, Bertie Ahern, the former Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland, stated that technology would be a partial solution to managing movements across the Irish border after Brexit, and the number of times you've raised this disparagingly, what research has your Government actually undertaken on the technologies being applied in many parts of the world that are managing goods and transporting across borders on precisely this basis?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:33, 5 December 2017

I'm not sure it's our responsibility to do that, quite frankly, and the UK Government has said consistently that it's exploring the technology. In other words, it has no idea what technology might be used. Can I say to the Member that there is one example of an entity that is outside the customs union having a border with an entity within the customs union, and that is Gibraltar, and that border is very, very hard. It's far from being a soft border. Really, he seemed to be reading out a statement they should have delivered yesterday afternoon, and that is that the UK Government is close to a deal with the EU. Well, that clearly isn't the case after we saw the collapse of the negotiations last night. I'm surprised to hear that the DUP are actually in a coalition with the Conservative Government. I wasn't aware that they were actually in a coalition and had Ministers in a coalition.

But isn't the point this: that the UK Government has a responsibility to secure a deal that is good for the whole of the UK? It was quite clear yesterday—quite clear yesterday—that they were looking to arrange a special deal or special status for Northern Ireland. That was where the UK Government was yesterday lunchtime. Arlene Foster picks up the phone and says 'Theresa, sorry, we're not going to allow you to do this' and Theresa May then capitulates. Is there not a danger here that the whole of the UK and its interests will be made subject to the views of the largest party in Northern Ireland—true—but not a party that represents the majority of people in Northern Ireland? Can the Member not see there are dangers in that?

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru 1:35, 5 December 2017

We've seen over the past 24 hours the prospect of one part of the UK getting a unique deal, and I reiterate that we in Plaid Cymru want Wales too to be able to benefit from any kind of distinct or special arrangements that would allow us also to be in the single market and the customs union. And nobody in their right minds would want to see a hard border on Ireland—I know the First Minister agrees with me on that. But shifting the hard border eastwards is not a solution that would work for Wales, and certainly not for my constituents and the port of Holyhead.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

There are very grave implications for my own constituency, and the 1,000 people working either directly or indirectly in the port of Holyhead, in seeing a hard border at Holyhead. Holyhead is the second most busy port in Britain, in terms of ferries transporting goods. Now, trade is entirely reliant on the free flow of goods, and trade will seek simpler and easier routes. There is already evidence of more direct routes being sought for ships travelling from the European continent to the port of Holyhead.

Now, we have to consider all options. We would favour remaining in the single market. What consideration is being given, if we can’t achieve that, to creating a free trade area in Holyhead, or in Anglesey as a whole, or in other port areas in Wales as a way forward? I want an assurance that this Government will be looking at all options, including that one, and can I also ask for an assurance that the fate of our ports will be now be central to the work of the Welsh Government in persuading the UK Government to demonstrate that they are giving any consideration at all to our interests as a nation, because, at the moment, I see no evidence of that at all?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:36, 5 December 2017

(Translated)

Well, a great deal of what the Member has said is correct. We have said on several occasions that 70 per cent of the trade between Great Britain and the island of Ireland goes through Welsh ports, and anything that stops that, or is a barrier to that, is something that will cost Holyhead, Pembroke Dock and Fishguard a great deal in jobs and in trade. What is the answer? Well, it’s quite clear: the United Kingdom should remain within the single market and also in the customs union. So, we wouldn’t want any kind of border as regards tariffs between Britain and Ireland, or between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That is the answer. And, of course, we’ve been telling the United Kingdom that they don’t have to interpret last year’s result as a result that has to lead to the hardest Brexit possible. It is quite possible to leave the European Union in a way that doesn’t endanger jobs in Wales and which keeps us in the single market and part of the customs union.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 1:37, 5 December 2017

The only thing we've learned out of the fiasco of the weekend is that Theresa May isn't terribly good at politics, which we knew anyway from the last general election result. It would be inconceivable for the DUP ever to countenance the kind of deal that we read about, whereby there would be a special deal for Northern Ireland on trade, because that would compromise the integrity of the United Kingdom, which is the main purpose of the DUP's existence. So, that was never a runner. Eighty-five per cent of Northern Ireland's trade with the British Isles as a whole is done with the United Kingdom, not with the Irish republic, so it's not even in Ireland's economic interest to have the kind of deal that the EU would want. But I think the other lesson we draw from the events of the weekend is that a handful of Northern Irish MPs have far more influence with the British Government than the Welsh Government has, and I think that that's an indictment of the Welsh Government rather than the DUP.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:38, 5 December 2017

[Inaudible.]—the Conservative Party, and the weakness of the Prime Minister. It is worrying to hear the leader of UKIP say, 'Well, the Prime Minister isn't terribly good at politics'—that perhaps is not the strongest attribute that somebody might have when they are in fact the Prime Minister.

There are two options here. Either, first of all, the DUP weren't asked their views, and then made their views very, very clear, or they were asked their views and went back on some kind of agreement with the UK Government. There are no other options available here. Either way, it's a sign of mismanagement by the UK Government of the situation. I thought what was being proposed yesterday was something that was interesting, in terms of a solution. Nobody wants to have a hard border—it's impossible to have a hard border, actually, on that island. I know that area well. It's impossible; it can't be done, and I thought there were ways of looking for a solution. But what we now seem to have is there is a veto on the part of one party, which represents roughly 37, 38 per cent of the population in Northern Ireland, in terms of what the future might hold, and that, surely, is not a situation that is sustainable as far as the future is concerned. And I would expect the UK Government to have dealt with this with the DUP beforehand in order to gain the DUP's support. It seems to me that either that didn't happen or it did happen and the DUP changed their minds. What other option could there be? 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:40, 5 December 2017

(Translated)

Thank you, First Minister.