8. Plaid Cymru debate: Catalonia

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:15 pm on 6 December 2017.

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Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 5:15, 6 December 2017

I think, in Britain, we would say that you should have a referendum that both sides agree with and then proceed. But, of course, Britain is the only state in the world that currently believes that that's how secession should be dealt with. I agree that's how it should be dealt with, but Spain is not in a minority in holding a different view. And, truly, secession is a decision that must be made by citizens and not Parliament, so I think your point 4 is profoundly flawed in what it states.

Perhaps the core conundrum here is whether the norm should be that nations and states are coterminous, or whether national autonomy can flourish in multinational states. I hold the latter view, though there are times when it can't flourish and multinational states have sometimes had a history of repression. There is, I think, a great question of importance here in terms of what happens—what are the ramifications if you believe that states and nations should be coterminous? How many nations are there in the world? The current estimates, as far as I can establish, range from 600 to 6,000. Well, if you had 6,000 states in the world, international order may be very difficult to maintain. Certainly international institutions, as they're currently governed, would be exceptionally difficult to operate.