6. The Regulated Services (Service Providers and Responsible Individuals) (Wales) Regulations 2017

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:10 pm on 12 December 2017.

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Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Labour 5:10, 12 December 2017

Diolch. [Interruption.] Yes. I will do my best to reply to a string of questions, but can I first of all just thank you, Suzy, for the broad welcome you have for the detail within these regulations, and also the clarity that the regulations do bring for providers? I think some of that clarity has come through, I have to acknowledge, the scrutiny that it has received in its transition to this point, including under the previous Bill by Assembly Members, but also the work done by my former colleague the Minister on my left, as well. There's been extensive stakeholder engagement, and that I think has informed the progress of this to get to this level of detail. In some ways, whilst the focus has been on that continual improvement and driving up standards both from the service and the workforce, it has also been on pragmatic solutions that will work, as well, with the sector. So, I think we've come to a pretty good place.   

Let me try and turn to some of the issues that she mentioned. First of all, one of the issues that was quite interesting in terms of the consultation and broader feedback was exactly that point about accommodation or other services that are not caught within the compass of this current set of regulations. Well, there is actually scope within the Act to revisit that. So, for example, one of the ones that's been mentioned previously has been the issue of day centres. Now, there are day centres and there are day centres. There are day centres that can operate almost like a lunch club—arriving for a couple of hours and a great medium for social engagement and wider things. There are other ones that are, in effect, for people who are attending for two or three days of the week for a large segment of time. Now, those don't fall, based on the feedback that we've had, currently within this, but the Act allows that flexibility to revisit and review as time goes by other services that could be deemed to be within the care provision generally there.   

On the codes that you mentioned, I can tell you that the codes relevant to those areas have actually been issued already flowing from the 2014 Act, but I'll happily write with more detail on that. [Interruption.] Ah, right, okay. Well, in that case, to clarify, I'll happily write to clarify on that, Suzy, if you're receiving some different information there. 

In terms of the approach, whether it's to the requirements on nursing—which, by the way, now are very much focused on the outcomes of individuals; it's very much person centred, rather than in any way more prescriptive, normative thing that say that you must have x number of nurses for x numbers of people, and so on. This is much more to do with—there is a requirement here on the manager and on the responsible individual who oversees those managers of the individual services to make sure that the needs of those individual people in each individual service have been accounted for, and if that requires full-time nursing presence of one or two, or whatever, that will be provided for. 

The question that you raised was, 'What happens if there is a failure in that?' This is exactly where the regulator then would step in, but taking, I have to say, a proportionate approach, because if it was part of a clear and deliberate pattern, I suspect the regulator would take a very different approach to something that happened on a temporary, emergency basis, where there was a process being filled in to fill that gap rapidly. So, a proportionate approach would be taken, I think, by the regulator. 

You also touched on the issue of travel time and the role there as well, the clarity that is now given with this and the regulator. Again, the oversight of the—. What we haven't done in here, deliberately based on the consultation, is taken, again, an overly prescriptive way that says to a provider, 'You must do exactly this model of how you account for travel time and care time'. What we've said is, 'You've got to have, according to these regulations, a plan in place, you've got to have a planned approach towards your rota-ing of staff'. We recognise it will vary in different locations and different types of service provided, but we want to see that, and the regulator will want to see that. And if that is not in place, then there is the ability of the regulator here to actually step in, and if there isn't a proper model in place then the regulator will take a dim view of this, and has the powers within here. 

So, there is a requirement here both on the manager of that service, but also on that responsible individual, to make sure that those plans are in place and that there is that separation of the travel time and the care time. At the moment, as we know, unfortunately, what we have sometimes—not all providers, because there's some very good practice out there—but some are too encroached upon each other, and that is neither good necessarily for the care of the individual, but it's also not good for the way that the staff themselves feel valued as part of their profession. A key part of my approach is to make sure that we—part of the regulations do this, whether it's this or the approach that we're taking to zero hours within here—actually say to the profession, 'This is valued profession, we want to see you lifted up.'

If there is anything in terms of the codes that I need to write on clarity to you, I'd be happy to do that. Were there any other aspects? I think I've dealt with—