We move on to the Member debate under Standing Order 11.21, which is on public transport network, and I call on Lee Waters to move the motion—Lee.

Motion NDM6572 Lee Waters, Mick Antoniw, David Melding, Nick Ramsay, Hefin David, Suzy Davies, Mike Hedges, David Rees, Jenny Rathbone, Julie Morgan

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Recognises the importance of a modern public transport network to relieve pressure on Wales’s road network.

2. Notes the evidence that a fully integrated public transport system—including active travel—is needed to provide a practical and attractive alternative to car use.

3. Welcomes the commitment to the first stages of a south Wales metro.

4. Endorses the commitment to develop a vision for a north-east Wales metro, and the allocation of funding for the development of a strategic outline case for a Swansea Bay metro, and calls on the Welsh Government to identify funding for full feasibility studies as a next step.

5. Believes Transport for Wales must have the power to act as a development corporation—with the ability to capitalise on rising land values in areas close to metro stations—in order to lever in further funding to expand the metro network.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. Yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary told the Assembly that demand for public transport is predicted to grow by 150 per cent in the next 13 years. If that’s correct, then it's vital that we make the investment now to ensure that there's an attractive alternative to car use in place. 

Evidence from the most successful cities around the world, where public transport is thriving, is that people will use buses and trains if they are easy to use. Passengers need to be able to turn up and go. But, in many of the communities I represent, people’s experience of public transport is very different. They turn up, and it’s gone. We’ve got bus services like the L1 from Morfa to Llanelli, which stop at 4 p.m. If you live in Kidwelly or Trimsaran, there are just three bus services a day to Llanelli, and the last bus from Tumble leaves at 6.30 p.m. There are just four trains a day from Bynea to Swansea, and, if instead you take the number 16 bus, it will take nearly two hours—a trip you can make by car in 30 minutes. 

My constituents have been telling me that, when they do take public transport, it often turns up late, the heating will have packed up or buses will only accept exact change. I accept that may not be most people's experience, but anecdotal evidence like this is commonly cited by people who drive as a reason for not using public transport. And, if they can be persuaded to give it a try, it only takes a couple of bad experiences to put them off for good.

There is cross-party support to build metro systems. Our motion today welcomes the commitment to taking forward the Cardiff and the Valleys metro, the pledge to develop one in north-east Wales, and for a study of one for the Swansea bay city region. I am holding a meeting with businesses in Llanelly House on Friday to build support for the metro in my region and to get ideas of how to shape it to make things better for the communities I represent. We quickly need detailed blueprints now for all three metro projects, and for these to be ambitious—not just good services for the main towns and cities, but to reach out and link in outlying communities. It's crucial too that we design the metro with the whole journey in mind, door to door. So, as well as buses and trains, we need to think about how this links with walking and cycling for the journeys to and from stations and to design them in. Otherwise, we could end up blowing a huge pile of money on a series of massive car parks at each station. 

So—so far, so familiar. But the purpose of today’s debate, I hope, is for us to look at metros differently, to look beyond their transport benefits to their wider regeneration benefits too. By improving transport connections to key settlements, we are opening up the potential for bringing other benefits to those areas as well. When a service improves, or a new station is built, the value of nearby land tends to increase as it becomes a more attractive place to build. Businesses are drawn in, not just to the individual metro station, but to the large urban centres that become within easy reach of the end of the line, increasing their talent pool exponentially. And it helps the unemployed and the under-employed too by making jobs more accessible regardless of whether they have a car. We know that those on the lowest incomes can spend a quarter of their income on running a car to get access to work. Affordable public transport can help remove that barrier to employment.

These potential benefits, Dirprwy Lywydd, are well established, but we've misread this potential as being inevitable. With these new metro systems, as well as getting the mechanics right, we need to make sure that, from the outset, we build in the additional levers that are needed to ensure that, as we upgrade the transport system, we lock in the wider benefits that this new investment will create. For people to take advantage of the new jobs that will be accessible to them, not only do we need to ensure they have the transport means to access these new jobs, but they have the qualifications too. This mustn’t be a broad-brush approach, but a targeted one. Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: where is the analysis of what new jobs will be accessible and of which specific new employers might be attracted to these communities as a result of a new metro station? It’s only with this analysis that we can see where the skills gaps are and how the existing population can be supported to meet those skills gaps so that we aren’t simply importing talent, we’re developing it.

On land prices, if we are to prevent profits falling only to private landlords and homeowners, Transport for Wales must have the power to act as a development corporation, with the ability to capitalise on rising land values in areas close to metro stations so that they can lever in further funding to expand the metro network. And, in terms of attracting new businesses, what measures are in place to ensure new businesses increase the social value, not just the shareholder value? Will the appearance of a new Tesco Metro, for example, put existing local businesses at risk? Could alternative approaches boost, rather than undermine, the existing foundational economies? All of this needs to considered and designed in.

The Welsh Government needs to make sure that Transport for Wales has all of the tools and the direction to design metro systems that don’t just improve public transport but change the life chances of the people in the areas we represent. This is not just a project for engineers to play with buses and trains, and Ministers must make sure the different portfolios come together to capture this opportunity. Diolch.

Thank you very much. Nick Ramsay.

Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to subscribe to and to contribute to this debate this afternoon. The key tenet of this debate, as Lee Waters has alluded to, recognises the importance of a modern public transport network to relieve pressure on our road network. I don't think this is controversial. Well, it certainly shouldn't be. It seems common sense, but how often over recent decades has the eye been taken off the transport ball? This has been a long-standing problem, not just with one Government but many Governments over many years and many decades.

It stands to reason that if we can get more people on buses and trains—and trams, indeed—there'll be more space on our roads for motorists who really do need to use them. Of course, at the same time, the development of driverless cars, which we discussed in this Chamber recently, should further increase road capacity as computer technology reduces the stopping distances needed on our roads, and so we can increase the capacity there, but that's for another debate.

I would like to stress that I don't see this as being about penalising the motorist, and I think there will be journeys where the car has been king and will be king, particularly in rural areas, where it's always difficult to plug some of those gaps. But, quite simply, not enough has been done to support public transport over the years and decades following the second world war up to the present day. So, we warmly welcome plans to develop a south Wales metro, which is in the motion—the first phase, at any rate—and also the north Wales metro, which has also been mentioned in the phrasing of the motion. But we need to move on from the concept to shovel-ready projects, and to get on with the job.

Clearly, parts of the metro map will be easier to deliver than others—a tram link, often talked about, from Cardiff city centre to Cardiff bay, for instance, perhaps the reinstatement of other tram lines across the capital, and making use of the existing Valleys lines, because the infrastructure is already there. Trams are great, of course, because they can run on rail and road and they are completely clean in terms of the urban emissions that aren't released, unlike buses and other transport. 

Of course, where we really need better infrastructure is in the rural areas I mentioned earlier, where there is currently a very patchy public transport service. We know full well just how expensive reinstating that rail infrastructure can be—far pricier in the short term than bus services. I know that some work has been done over the years in terms of reinstating the Wye valley line in my area from Chepstow to Monmouth, but it would prove prohibitively expensive, as would some other rail schemes.

I often jest that in 1950 you could travel from my village of Raglan to Cardiff by train with ease—how we long for those days. We talk about progress—in some ways, it doesn't seem that we have progressed. Sixty years on, that service is not there, and it was much easier to do. Today, in my constituency, it's actually very easy to commute to Cardiff in the morning from Monmouth by bus and rail, but the problem, as Lee Waters said, is actually getting back—that's not so straightforward. I think the last bus from Newport is at around 5.30 p.m., maybe a little bit after that, and at about the same time in Abergavenny. So, you're then stuck; it doesn't give you sufficient time to get from your place of work to Cardiff Queen Street, to Cardiff Central, to Newport in time for the connection, so you're then reliant on cabs, hitch-hiking or lifts from friends, so that simply isn't good enough.

Cabinet Secretary, these problems need to be ironed out to make public transport the viable option that we all want it to be. That's not to say that we haven't seen some positive developments over the last few years, with some new stations and others on the horizon—a new station promised at Magor. I've previously raised the possibility with you of a hub at the Celtic Manor next to the proposed conference centre, and the more I think about this the more I think it is a solution to a number of our problems in south-east Wales at least. I know that you're amenable to this. It would be a matter then of getting passengers from Newport to the hub and then worrying about the second phase of their journey from the hub on to rural areas and beyond after that. So, it would potentially break down the current barriers that are there. 

And, of course, it's not just about the transport—ticketing is all-important as well, and the holy grail of integrated, seamless ticketing, a great idea in practice but a devilishly difficult thing to achieve, as Professor Stuart Cole once memorably said when we were considering the issue on the previous economy and transport committee in the last Assembly. New technology can play an important part in helping deliver these objectives. Apps on phones are more likely to keep up to date than conventional bus timetables, which are usually days or weeks out of date, if not even worse. And what will happen if we don't act? Well, we've seen the problems on the M4. I think my reticence about the new M4 is well known. Leaving aside the environmental issues, I think the past has shown that if we simply rely on road building without developing public transport at the same time then we will end up in severe problems. 

Deputy Presiding Officer, I think the last paragraph of the motion is all-important. Transport for Wales must have power, it must have the teeth that Lee Waters alluded to, to succeed and not just be a talking shop, and I think the devolution of the Traffic Commissioner for Wales is a very good start. But let's get on with the job and deliver a public transport system in the future that Wales can be proud of.  

The car may need to be king in rural areas, but in inner city urban areas like Cardiff public transport has to be the default option for those unwilling or unable to walk or cycle. People in Cardiff are starting to wear face masks like they do in Beijing. This is the consequence of the do-nothing approach to 80,000 people commuting into Cardiff and Newport from neighbouring authorities by car. The whole region experiences road gridlock at peak times. If the Welsh Government fails to act over the illegal levels of air pollution, they will end up in court, costing a huge amount of money that we could be spending on public transport.

People want to do the right thing. The demand for rail has grown from 20 million passenger journeys to 30 million in the last decade. That's just on the Valleys lines. It's impossible to drive more people out of their cars and onto rail services without increased capacity, so one of the things we need to know is: at what point in the contract for the new rail franchise provider will there be greater capacity and ticket transferability to enable more people to do the right thing?

This motion welcomes the commitment to the first stages of a south Wales metro, but I want to ask: where is the rest? It's five years since Mark Barry's report, 'A Metro for Wales' Capital City Region', and two years since Cardiff capital region board identified that an integrated transport system, aligned with land use planning, could be the catalyst for economic change across the region. And at the heart of this aspiration is the metro vision for a modern, high-quality, multimodal, integrated public transport network.   

The Central Cardiff enterprise zone is expected to attract thousands of jobs to Wales, but only a fast metro connection will enable the people of the south Wales Valleys to access these jobs. Inward investors have been promised access to 1.5 million people within a 30-minute commute, and that cannot be achieved without the metro. Only a fast metro connection can cater for the tens of thousands of predictable short journeys people make every day to and from work and school.

So, the consensus is there, but where is the money? We know that £734 million has been allocated for the south Wales metro, of which £250 million is from the Welsh Government and £375 million from the UK Government, which includes £150 million for electrification. And then there is some European money of something in the region of £120 million to £130 million. So, in this £375 million the UK Government has promised is a conditional sum of £125 million to electrify the Valleys lines, only if the Welsh Government also puts in at least £325 million for electrification. If not, the £125 million from the UK Government can be withdrawn. So, I'm concerned that we're going to put at least £450 million of this £734 million into electrification, and it's not cost-effective.

The topography and number of stops on the Valleys lines means heavy electric trains will never achieve speeds in excess of 50 miles an hour, and that can be provided by trams. Like Nick Ramsay, I am a fan of the tram. It's a much cheaper alternative. It means that from Pontypridd, instead of six or seven trains an hour with an electrified train, you can get 10 to 12 fast trams. From Merthyr, two trains an hour could be substituted by three or four trams an hour. Only then can you reduce the journey time from Merthyr to 40 minutes—you can't do that with heavy rolling stock—because you can run light rail much closer together and they stop much more quickly. 

So, what if the successful rail franchise bidder says that electrification of the Valleys lines is a waste of money and a much more cost-effective approach is light rail on all or nearly all Valleys lines? Will we have to be dictated to by London and go ahead with a less effective, more costly approach? What does that say about Welsh Government desire for industry to provide the answer to what mode of transport will work best through market testing and eventual bidding procurement processes? I want to ensure that we are able to do the right thing so that we have enough money to get the rest of the metro vision of an integrated public transport network, with centralised ticketing, and to make it cost-effective. We know that, in order to get the rest of the money, pound for pound, a mile of rail investment costs about the same as a motorway mile but benefits up to 20 times more people. We have to stop chasing car-centric investment and invest in a fully integrated public transport system if we're to provide a practical alternative.

This is the shift—

Are we winding up, please?

Yes, I am winding up—that the well-being of future generation Act demands and the carbon reduction targets that the environment Act requires. In Cardiff city region, that means the metro.

Transport has tended to be, in Wales, something that's done to us, not for us and certainly not for ourselves. Our transport infrastructure has often reflected the prevailing power dynamics, the prevailing economics, rather than being used in the way that I think Lee Waters was suggesting and, indeed, Jenny Rathbone—as a creative tool, if you like, for reinventing our country and our economic and social landscape. What I mean, more explicitly: if you look at the transport map of Wales, it essentially has all the hallmarks of a colonised economy. Essentially, it's still basically arterial routes that were either mine to coast or farm to major market. And we're still struggling with that. That's the essence of the problem that we face as a nation: that we are dislocated. To get from the south to Aberystwyth by train, or even more so to north Wales, requires a heroic effort worthy of Odysseus. At a smaller scale, at the micro level, try traversing valleys in the former coalfield area—whether in the west, the centre or in the east—there is no connection. So, how can we create better jobs closer to home when you simply can't get there? You can't even get to a job that may be eight or nine miles away because it's over the next valley.

My fear is that while there is much that is good in the motion, it's interesting what it omits. It refers to the key areas that the Welsh Government are looking at, which are metros: metros for three metropolitan regions. And I find that strange in a country that actually is defined by the fact that most of us don't live in cities. We're a less metropolitan nation than almost any other. The 700,000 people that live in the former coalfield, if they were a city, they'd be a big one, but those are post-industrial villages. I wonder whether in our transport policy we've been somewhat seduced by the snake oil of city regionalism, which has become—. You know, the theory of agglomeration economies: 'If we could double the size of Cardiff, then everything would be fine' is the basic underlying idea of city regionalism. I know, because I've studied under some of the authors of the idea of city regions. Read the book Triumph of the City et cetera. This is absolutely the wrong idea and, in fact, city regionalism around the world now—I think critics and sceptics are coming to the fore, because it hasn't actually delivered what it says it can. [Interruption.] I give way.

Can you not accept that the city region concept in south Wales is about connecting different communities, not about forcing everybody to move into Cardiff? That would be the nightmare scenario.

It can be that, but there is a tension. For example, in the versions and the discussion that I've heard, the emphasis almost always seems to be on basically—to simplify it, but essentially—to use it as a commuter service to get people from the hinterland to work in jobs in Cardiff. That makes no economic sense for us. It will not be delivered. I agree with the Member that, actually, a different vision needs to be presented. Some of the original ideas, some of the work that Roger Tanner did on a city of the Valleys, was actually a much more exciting vision, which had a sense of a polycentric region, which actually addressed in transport terms the very problem of traversal links, rather than this very linear approach, which actually, again, mirrors our economic history and I don't think is a blueprint for our economic future.

The motion also does not refer to the west and the south-west or to the issue—I think the big issue—of the big opportunity to create a rail corridor, a national rail corridor, starting with Carmarthen to Aberystwyth. That is an exciting and imaginative idea that I think will inspire people and will change the shape of our nation and the shape of our future.

I thank the Members involved for bringing this debate to the Chamber, though following on from the Cabinet statements yesterday and the responses that followed, I'm not sure there's a great deal to add to what has been said before. But, in the great tradition of politicians, I won't let that deter me. It is universally accepted that Wales is in dire need of a modern integrated transport system, and it should be one that puts Wales at the forefront of what makes a benchmark public transport network. Only by implementing such a system will we be able to move away from a gridlocked road infrastructure, exacerbated by our overdependence on the motor car.

We have to acknowledge that Wales's topography is a barrier to achieving a seamless transport system, but given the right strategy and, of course, the financial commitment, there is no reason why the Welsh Government's goals cannot be achieved. It is a given that a well integrated transport system renders huge benefits, both economically and socially, so it is vital that the planned metro system, both in north and south Wales, is implemented with a rigid and timely schedule.

Although the use of trains has risen substantially over recent years, it is still true that buses carry 80 per cent of the people who use public transport. Therefore, it is vital that these services are run in as integrated and efficient a way as possible. Where deregulated bus operators are seen to be concentrating on profits rather than customer satisfaction, Transport for Wales should be given the powers to plan and specify the network in line with the guiding principles of providing targeted needs and the reduction of congestion.

Most of Wales is rural, and many of those who live in the countryside are solely dependent on public transport. Therefore, it is incumbent upon the Welsh Government to make sure that there is an adequate, well integrated public transport system with good connectivity between train and bus services so that our rural communities are not left behind in this move towards better quality public transport services. I mentioned earlier the potential shortfalls of a deregulated bus industry. I therefore agree with the proposal that Transport for Wales should have the powers to act as a development agency, so that it can intervene when services are not being run in an integrated or efficient manner.

We all recognise that in order to have a successful, modern economy, the ability to guarantee the smooth and efficient transportation of goods and people is a fundamental requirement. Failure to deliver this represents the greatest threat to the competitiveness of Welsh business. We look forward to the Welsh Government delivering the transport system that Wales so desperately needs.

I'm very pleased to sponsor and to speak on this motion, and I'm very keen to see the metro plans come to fruition and to see less use of the car. The motion notes, as several speakers have already said, that a fully integrated public transport system, including active travel, is needed to provide a practical and attractive alternative to car use.

I'd just like to quote from an e-mail I received from a constituent this morning, which I think sums up our train transport problems in Cardiff in a nutshell, which have already been referred to by my colleague Jenny Rathbone. My constituent says, 

'Last night 3 trains went by before I could squeeze on a 4th. None had adequate carriages. I’m heavily pregnant at the moment and it’s becoming harder and harder to use the train as it’s so crushed. Plus it’s making me too late to pick my son up despite leaving 40 mins for a 4 min journey. I will soon be going back to using my car—something I really don’t want to do. I also miss out on cheaper childcare available to me in the city centre (provided by my work) as I'm not willing to put my two-year old through going on the trains in those conditions. There's no way anybody elderly or with certain disabilities could handle it either (I doubt a wheelchair would ever fit on).'

So, I think that e-mail illustrates what commuters are experiencing, but it also shows how the different priorities that are very important to us in this Assembly and important to the Government, such as cheaper childcare—or we hope that there'll be a lot more free childcare available—are dependent on transport to get you there. So, all the different bits of the Government are all linked together, and I think that e-mail does illustrate that.

I had another e-mail only this morning, as well, saying,

'The trains are old, smelly, unreliable, stiflingly hot and usually extremely overcrowded. I moved to the area recently and I started my new job in the city centre approximately 3 weeks ago. I have already been late due to the poor running of the trains on 4 occasions. You can imagine this does not really make a good impression on my new boss but my other options of commuting are extremely limited—the amount of traffic into town certainly does not need to be added to. In any event, I purchased my property based on its proximity to the train station!'

That is really picking up on the point that Lee Waters has made—that people want to move to live near the train stations. There will be rising land values, and I certainly support the proposal about capitalising on the rising land values, but obviously, we've got to get the transport systems to work.

I welcome the plans for the metro, but fully integrated public transport and active travel also requires us to think, as Lee Waters also said, about how people get to the existing train stations and also the train stations that are proposed under the metro scheme. And promoting walking and cycling to transport hubs must be in the discussion, and high up in the discussion. We've got to keep it right there, in the front, and it’s vital that there are bike parking facilities at all stations, which is not currently the case, of course.

This is especially important, as we know that the number of short journeys under 1 mile taken by car are increasing. The latest statistics for active travel show that only 5 per cent of adults cycled at least one or twice a week, 61 per cent of adults walked at least once or twice a week, and people in urban areas are more likely to walk three or more times a week, compared to those in rural areas. I think there is a particular issue about rural areas, which has been raised. So, I think it's really important that we invest in walking infrastructure as well as cycle lanes.

I am organising an event in my constituency in January to promote cycling for short journeys—commuting to work, going to the shops and doing the school run. We are going to have talks about getting on your bike, and particularly to encourage older people and more women to cycle, because we need to tackle people's very real worries about cycling in traffic, and we will be giving them practical help to do things like fixing a puncture or advising them about cycling in the dark. We'll also be talking about electric bikes, because I think it's very important that we do promote cycling for these short journeys, and we want to make sure that cycling doesn't become the preserve of, as has been quoted to me, middle-aged men in lycra. We want it to be for all the community, and we want everybody, particularly women, to get more involved in cycling. Diolch.

Thank you. Can I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Transport, Ken Skates?

Yes. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to thank all Members for their contributions today and for bringing forward this particular debate. As many Members have already said, improving our public transport system is absolutely critical to the economic, social and environmental ambitions of our country. I want to begin by saying that there is a huge amount in what Lee Waters said in opening this debate that I wholeheartedly agree with. Lee rightly outlined the scale, for example, of the challenge ahead of us. Public transport growth has been very significant in recent years, and it's likely to increase substantially in the years to come. As Lee outlined, and as others have outlined in their own areas, it's incredibly difficult for people in many communities, particularly those rural communities, to connect with other communities at a convenient time and with regular, decent, high-quality services. Lee, and others, demonstrated very clearly that enhanced connectivity is essential to supporting both economic and population growth in all parts of Wales. Others, like Julie, shared particular case studies concerning the use and need for better public transport, better integrated public transport. And the metro projects that we're developing in the north-east and in south Wales will be multimodal. They will be integrated, rapid transit networks that have improved bus, rail and active travel services right at their very heart. 

As Julie, Jenny and others have outlined, it's also important that passengers have confidence in the quality of services and that standards are universally applied to local public transport, right across the whole of Wales. As Adam Price rightly said, the quality of service delivered in the more rural parts of our country should be of no less favourable quality than those provided within the metro or more urbanised parts of the country.

Now, at this point, I'd like to say something about accessibility, which is something that I see as being crucially important to transport design. Buses are now required to offer priority seating, lower floors and spaces for wheelchairs. In relation to the publication of lists of wheelchair-accessible taxis by licensing authorities, passengers can now be better informed about the availability of wheelchair-accessible taxi services operating in their areas. And, of course, in addition, from January 2020 all trains operating on our railways will be required to meet accessibility standards set out by the European Union and also the UK Government. Now, whilst these advances have been, no doubt, welcome, there is still much more action that needs to take place to make public transport more inclusive and more accessible. It's something that I want help with from Members in this Chamber as we move our public transport system forward in the next few years. 

One of the key barriers, Deputy Presiding Officer, to accessibility identified by many disabled people is a lack of consistency in the way that services and facilities are delivered. Central to this issue is the need to transform the understanding of accessibility and inclusive design amongst professionals who plan, design, build and operate transport infrastructure and interchanges, services and streetscapes. 

The new accessibility objectives that we have developed and the actions underpinning them have been designed by my accessible transport panel, comprising organisations representing disabled people, older people, people with learning disabilities and equality groups. Now, as Members have said, transport plays a pivotal role in improving prosperity, and yesterday we launched the economic action plan, which set out the importance we attach to effective and integrated transport infrastructure in achieving our aim of prosperity for all. One of the important changes of approach in the document relates to the point made by several Members during this debate, namely the need to utilise major projects such as the metro, through which to undertake major, wider housing, land use, skills and economic development planning. I don't see Transport for Wales itself becoming an independent development agency by which to achieve this, but I will be expecting it to work with partners very closely in order to achieve that joined-up planning that Lee and others called for, to exploit increasing land-use values driven by transport investment, and to ensure that we have the development of houses and services in the right locations, linking up with transport investments.

Deputy Presiding Officer, a number of Members including Nick Ramsay and Lee Waters spoke about the need to address the failures of bus deregulation in 1986, and we'll do just this through the radical reforms that we'll be consulting on in the spring. Wales's bus network carries more than 100 million passengers a year, and I am determined that this number should not just stay steady, but should increase if we are to tackle road congestion and pollution as outlined by Jenny Rathbone. An effective and efficient rail service is also essential to this process, and I expect the new Wales and borders rail services franchise to deliver this.

These are exciting times, I think, for rail in Wales. A huge amount of activity is under way in finding the operator and development partner to operate the Wales and borders rail services from October next year, and to deliver the south Wales metro from 2023. This procurement exercise that we're currently engaged in is indeed the largest single procurement the Welsh Government has ever undertaken. The new rail services will deliver a step change in the quality of rail travel across Wales.

Now, the south Wales metro will provide the model that we can roll out across the rest of the country, and we've also already funded development work on the outline concept of a metro for south-west Wales this financial year. I'm very pleased to say that Swansea county council is co-ordinating this work in partnership with other local authorities, and the project is progressing well, with consultants appointed to develop the concept. Both an inception meeting and a regional workshop have been held, and Swansea council will seek to continue the development of the concept into the next financial year, when work will be undertaken to apply a more thorough assessment and testing of the concept through a strategic outline business case. Our metros will deliver much more that just an improved public transport network. They'll provide more frequent services, allowing passengers to turn up and go.

Will the Minister give way?

Yes, indeed.

Would you address the specific point about the need to empower Transport for Wales with the powers of a development corporation to lever in this added value that will be created?

I should say that Transport for Wales is being designed as an expert group to be able to offer advice and to manage rail services. I think it will require more than just Transport for Wales to deliver the maximum value for land and land-use planning that the Member and others have outlined. I don't see this being a role just for Transport for Wales, but for an entire raft of partners working together to exploit improved land values and opportunities for development. In terms of, for example, Cardiff Central railway station, that's become incredibly congested. It's six times busier than any other station in Wales, but I am pleased to announce that we have a vision for Cardiff Central station as a world-class transport hub, and today I'm able to announce our intention to enter into a formal joint venture with Cardiff council and their partner developer to take this vision forward. We'll start by focusing on the development of a new bus station in Cardiff. Our aim is for the joint venture to deliver on all of our ambitions for the interchange.

But it won't just be Cardiff that benefits from our vision. I'll be outlining tomorrow additional funding for a transport interchange in another part of Wales as we seek to roll out a north Wales metro, again spreading prosperity and opportunity across the country. Our vision of a transformed, integrated transport system that delivers economic growth and achieves social and environmental health and cultural benefits has been outlined. It's about enhancing transport infrastructure and services to reduce congestion and improve journey times, both of which are recognised as being fundamental to prosperous economies and sustainable environments.

Thank you very much. Can I call on Hefin David to reply to the debate?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. You can say what you want about Lee Waters, and, let's face it, many people do, but he has used this debate that he's led to stand up for his constituents and, at the same time, advocate policy change and cultural shift. I don't know how successful he's been, and perhaps we'll come back to that at the end of my summing up.

Work in progress.

It's not going to change how I'm going to vote. But certainly it's led to some consideration in this Chamber and a serious consideration in this Chamber, which is an important thing.

We're talking about the topography—Adam Price mentioned it—of the south Wales Valleys. Adam Price connected it with nation building, as you'd expect and as he does so often, so effectively. But, I think that there's not a lot you can do about our geography; it is what it is. But, those spokes that feed into Cardiff have hampered our ability to connect. And I think that you're absolutely right: when you're living in Caerphilly, when you're living in the Rhymney valley, it's very rare that you would ever think of anyone existing in the Rhondda valley or in Blaenau Gwent. It's very rare you would think of it, and I've said that before in this Chamber. 

So, we've got to connect, as Lee Waters said, our transport approach with economic policy. I think we're right to ask the Cabinet Secretary for a little bit more detail on some of these things in the future, in the new year, to see how we can precisely tie in our economic policy with transport policy.

Nick Ramsay mentioned—I knew he'd look up when I mentioned his name—not penalising the motorist in a not particularly party-political speech—it is, after all, nearly Christmas. He did say, 'Not penalising the motorist', but he trod a very fine line there and talked about the need for bringing transport to the rural economy. I'd say he's got—and I know he's got—advocates for that in Government now, who feel very strongly about sustainable transport in the rural economy, and he has an open door there if he continues to push as constructively as he did in his speech. I think that's quite important.

Others, including Jenny Rathbone, emphasised the environmental impact of our over-reliance on the car. I absolutely agree with that. Again, I think you're bolder than Nick Ramsay, Jenny Rathbone; I think you'd come and stand on Pwll-y-Pant roundabout with me and you'd tell people to get out of their cars and get on the train. Absolutely. Well, actually, I wouldn't say 'with me' because I wouldn't be there; you'd be on your own. [Laughter.] But, what we've got to do is get people out of these cars and onto public transport. But, as you said quite rightly, and the battle I'm having is that public transport has got to have capacity and it's got to be good enough. That's a conversation that I've had with Arriva Trains and it's a challenge you put to the Cabinet Secretary. You asked the Cabinet Secretary, 'How are you going to deal with the issue of electrification and the uncertainty over funding?' I'm not convinced that the Cabinet Secretary answered you in this Chamber, but I would expect the Cabinet Secretary to address these issues further in the future, particularly these funding issues. The Cabinet Secretary knows that the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee is looking for answers in that area.

Adam Price again—I'm going to come back again. If I was so minded I'd be awarding a prize for the best speech, but I'm not going to do that because I think it's going to be mine. [Laughter.] I joke. What I am going to do is that I'm going to say to Adam Price that he used a very evocative phrase there, which was really good: 'creative tool'. We can use this policy as a creative tool for reinventing our dislocated country. I think that's a grand vision for what our transport policy should be, and I think, actually, it's already underpinned in what the Cabinet Secretary is trying to do.

I actually have a lot of sympathy with your criticism of city regions too. The 'snake oil of city regionalism', you said. I am writing down these turns of phrase because I do videos every now and again and I tend to trot them out and they're very good. But, you're quite right to talk about linking the northern parts of our Valleys communities with each other, across south-east Wales, and linking south Wales with north. I think that's an incredible challenge that we must address. We've talked before about new garden towns perhaps offering such solutions. That's an interesting idea that I'd perhaps like to explore in future. I think there's an intervention coming.

Would the Member give way? Thank you. In terms of the cross-valley links, it's integral to the metro thinking that we include active travel, because the old network of railway tunnels—the Rhondda Tunnel is the most talked about, but there's a whole network of these across the Valleys, which, for active travel in particular, could make inter-valley journeys a practical option.

Yes, and I'm well aware that individual constituency AMs on these benches have raised these issues with Government. I think this is a discussion that needs to go on, and I would expect Government to be responding to those issues already. I know that that dialogue is going on, so you raise a very pertinent point.

David Rowlands talked about the overdependence on the motor car as well, so he'll be joining Jenny Rathbone up on the Pant roundabout asking people to get out of their cars. There's a real challenge there, though, because what you are talking about is cultural change. You are trying to change the culture in such a way that will change people's behaviour. Politicians telling people to change their behaviour is not a popular thing. So, for UKIP to advocate something that is so far from being populist is actually very welcome, and I look forward to having support if I go in that direction too.

Julie Morgan raised many stories of the problems of her constituents. This sounds a bit like a pun, but she said we need to shape a policy that goes in the direction that our constituents want us to go. That's a challenge when different areas have different demands. The city, perhaps, has different demands to the Valleys communities. Meeting that challenge, I think, will require us all as politicians of all parties to find a way to work together. 

Finally, I come to the Cabinet Secretary, who made some very welcome statements, and I was very welcoming of his economic plan yesterday. I think a lot of the answers lie within there, but we require further detail. But when it comes to point 5 of the motion, and point 5 of the motion reads that we believe

'Transport for Wales must have the power to act as a development corporation—with the ability to capitalise on rising land values in areas close to metro stations—in order to lever in further funding to expand the metro network',

I've got a feeling that the Cabinet Secretary gave us a polite and charming 'no'. Transport for Wales doesn't have the capacity to do that was his response. We can challenge that in the way we vote later, perhaps, but certainly the answer was encouraging in that he said that he would ask and require Transport for Wales to work with partners to deliver the kind of change that we want to see. So, he wants it to be broader, and I accept that, Cabinet Secretary. I accept that answer today. 

I think it's been a hugely constructive debate and I welcome all the contributions. I'm not going to pick a winner, because I don't think it would be fair to do so. I think all the contributions were excellent. Let's just choose the catchphrase of a Member who currently isn't in this Chamber, but it's apt on this occasion, 'Let's get it done'.

Thank you very much. I think, if anyone's going to award prizes at the end of term for speeches, it will be me, and you may not like my decisions. So, we'll move on very quickly.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we defer voting on this until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.