6. Debate on the Finance Committee report: Inquiry into the financial estimates accompanying legislation

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:25 pm on 24 January 2018.

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Photo of Llyr Gruffydd Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru 4:25, 24 January 2018

(Translated)

As one who isn’t a member of the Finance Committee, may I thank the committee and the Chair for their work? I think the Chair was a little hard on himself, suggesting that this isn’t the most exciting debate. Certainly, it won’t be the least exciting today. But I was excited by reading the report and looking at the recommendations, because of, as he’s mentioned, the experiences with the additional learning needs Bill, which is an Act now.

What’s summarised in the report and the recommendations that emerged from that report speak directly to some of the problems and frustrations that we as a Children, Young People and Education Committee had in scrutinising that particular Bill, particularly some of the recommendations around the regulatory impact assessments in terms of securing the quality of the assessment, that there should be a draft RIA as part of the consultation and the process of creating legislation, and this important role that stakeholders play, and that we need to improve the engagement of stakeholders in identifying the costs that may emerge as a result of legislation. That’s all important, and it’s all very pertinent to our practical experience of scrutinising this Bill.

It’s ironic that I’m raising these issues on the day that the Bill gets Royal Assent, but there we go. Because it’s only through Stage 1 scrutiny of that Bill that many of the weaknesses and the financial errors emerged, in terms of that particular piece of legislation. Originally, the Government had identified savings over four years of £4.8 million. Now, it became apparent, later on in the process, that there were no savings at all, but there were costs of almost £8 million, and that’s a difference of £12 million. Therefore, that actually lifted the curtain on some of the problems that are part of this process, and some of those problems that we need to guard against, in light of the recommendations made by the Finance Committee.

That also meant, of course, that we’d had to discuss and vote on Stage 1 of that Bill with the original RIA off the table, to all intents and purposes, as it was redrafted, and then we had to defer the financial decision, which was to take place after the vote on Stage 1. It wasn’t possible then to deal with Stage 2 amendments until those financial issues had been settled. And we did that just 24 hours before we sat down to vote on amendments at Stage 2, so it was a very confused process, and it didn’t provide the clarity that I would want to see and that we would all want to see in scrutinising legislation in this place, which would allow us all to be confident that the process was robust and engender confidence, not only here in the Chamber, but among the stakeholders and the wider public too.

You could argue that it’s not possible to guard against all possible scenarios. We’re all human of course, and mistakes will inevitably happen at times. You could also argue that the Children, Young People and Education Committee had done its job in scrutinising the Bill, and had highlighted some of these questions that led to the redrafting of the figures around that particular Bill. I, myself, would agree with that. It’s all valid and it’s all possible, but it’s also reasonable for us to all expect that everything possible should be done to avoid such a situation in the first place, and it’s also reasonable for us all to expect that lessons will be learned if these errors are made—that they should not be repeated in future.

That’s why I do welcome the Finance Committee’s report and the recommendations made in the report. I also welcome the fact that the Government has accepted most of the recommendations, although they have only accepted in principle the most relevant recommendation from my point of view, namely this issue of engagement with stakeholders in drawing up the costs. So, I thank the committee for casting light on the weaknesses of the process, and thank you for providing solutions, very specific solutions, to some of those problems. May I encourage the Government, as I’m sure they will, to respond positively and to accept all the recommendations, but certainly to learn the lessons from those recommendations?