8. The Landfill Disposals Tax (Tax Rates) (Wales) Regulations 2018

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:37 pm on 30 January 2018.

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Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru 5:37, 30 January 2018

(Translated)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Of course, I respect the fact that the Assembly can decide for itself how to deal with various regulations here, but I only intend to contribute once in discussing the issues at hand.

May I, first of all, note the fact that the Welsh Revenue Authority has been in attendance, as has already been mentioned? They've been at the Assembly, and I hope that Members have taken the opportunity to meet the authority—to meet its members. We, as the Finance Committee, look forward to working with the WRA on these new taxes and their implementation in Wales.

I was pleased to hear today, under the regulations that we're discussing, that the first official record has been made by the WRA of the first person who is to pay tax under the Landfill Disposals Tax (Wales) Act 2017. So, that's an individual who has made history—a footnote in history, at least, whoever that company may be. It's a footnote in the history of taxation in Wales.

As the Cabinet Secretary said, in opening the previous debate, we today are dealing with taxes for the first time in the history of this Assembly, and the first time for many centuries. I think that's what the Cabinet Secretary said. The history of taxation in Wales is very complex. It's not as clear as to say that we've not had any tax powers for 800 years. Certainly, some of the taxes of the Welsh princes remained after the days of Llywelyn the Last, and certainly up until the Acts of union, taxes were levied locally under the old Welsh system. So, it's not entirely new for us to be levying taxes in Wales, but taxes have changed, certainly—there's no doubt about that.

We are talking about the landfill disposals tax, and we will be discussing land transaction tax—it's not quite the taxes on cattle that Llywelyn had, or taxes in lieu of military service, or the gwestfa tax, which is collection of food for the king. It was Lord Rhys, not the princes of north Wales, but Lord Rhys, that turned gwestfa into a financial payment rather than a payment of food, and he described it as twnc. So, if you want to introduce a new tax, then that's the name for your new tax: twnc. That's paying tribute, but it's a good name for a tax, in my view.

So, there is some history of taxation in Wales; a history that was done away with, of course, with the two Acts of union. But, in the period after we lost our princes—well, they were kings to all intents and purposes; they were called princes by the English kings to mark that difference. Once we lost our direct rulers, we were reliant on the Westminster Parliament to levy taxes in Wales. It wasn't possible, for a long period of time, for Westminster to levy taxes in Wales, because there were no Members of Parliament elected from Wales to go to Westminster in order to provide that authority. It was only after the second Act of union that we saw real taxes in Wales for the very first time, and they were set by the king, of course, and that was the king’s subsidy. At that time, of course, the king had a right to levy a subsidy in Wales. Ever since then, we have been under a tax system that emerges from Westminster, rather than this place, and here we are, starting to draw those powers back and to take back control over some of the taxation powers in Wales.

Of course, there are only two taxes being considered this afternoon. Income tax is to come, and there may be more disagreement when we start to deal with income tax, but it is important to note, I think, that history is being made this afternoon in this Chamber, as we are setting tax rates for the first time. It’s not 3p per head, as it was for cattle in the past, but something far more substantial, according to the land transaction tax and the landfill disposals tax.

I’d like to turn to the work of the Finance Committee and remind Members that we are setting a tax and voting this afternoon in way that is different to what the approach will be in future. The two taxes that we’re dealing with today give Government the opportunity, next time, to introduce taxes on that day, if required, and the taxes will be introduced overnight, and the Assembly will have up to 28 days to cast a vote on those taxes. If the Assembly disagrees with the Cabinet Secretary, the Government and the WRA will have to repay those taxes, because the Assembly has not agreed with the Government. So, I note that the voting is different today to what it will be in future, perhaps, depending on what the Government intends to do. So, the voting procedure is to change in future.

As my colleague Adam Price, who is the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, has been detained elsewhere by the Hywel Dda business during proceedings, for some reason, I would just like to place on record that Plaid Cymru will support the tax rates today. We’ll certainly have more of a debate around income tax, and there may be some more disagreement across the Chamber on income tax. But, one thing is certain: we are making history today, and we are setting a new tone to the accountability of any Government to the people, because we are now discussing not only spending money in Wales, but raising money in Wales.