Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:40 pm on 6 February 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:40, 6 February 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru

Diolch Llywydd. It was right that you today acknowledged the wrongdoing in relation to Adam Price's personal data. We will return to the issue of confidentiality of Members' correspondence at another time, but I'll put that to one side for now. I want to ask you about Brexit. The UK Government reiterated yesterday that they want us out of the customs union. Now, as well as damaging the Welsh economy, this will affect our open border with Ireland through our ports. A hard border is coming. Six months ago, the inquiry into the effects of Brexit on Welsh ports made a recommendation for the Welsh Government to set out, and I quote:

'how it intends to address the lack of physical capacity to accommodate new borders and customs checks at Welsh ports, and develop a highways management contingency plan to manage potential congestion resulting from delays in ports.' 

Six months later, can you tell us what work has been done on that, please?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:41, 6 February 2018

Well, the issue of physical infrastructure at the ports to deal with issues such as customs are matters for the UK Government, not for us. It's for them to spend the money if that kind of Brexit is what they want. However, it's right to say that nobody argues for there to be a hard border between the UK and the Republic of Ireland, and we expect the UK Government to deliver that. It's not clear how they'll do it, but I expect them to deliver that. 

It is right to say that there are some in the Conservative Party who argue for a hard Brexit. There have been calls to expel them from their own party this morning, in fact. I think that's probably going a little bit too far, even by their Stalinist standards, but the serious point here is this: we have—she and I—never argued for any kind of Brexit that even looks like a hard Brexit. There is no mitigating that. There is no making it better. It can only mean that things get worse, which is why she and I have always, I believe, been in the same position of saying that Brexit has to work for Wales, that we have to make sure that we have full and unfettered access to the single market and that also we should stay in the customs union.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 1:42, 6 February 2018

But First Minister, that was a specific recommendation—a call for action on your Government, not the UK Government. 

I move on to the customs union question now. If we pull out of the customs union, the UK will have to negotiate its own free trade agreements. Trade deals outside of the EU and the customs union could have a major impact on our economy. I'm sure you would agree with that. You were asked yesterday whether you believed that Wales should have a veto on such trade deals like the Parliament in Wallonia of Belgium, and in answer to that question you said 'no'—no not only to a veto, but no to finding an agreement with the rest of the UK. You said that we should be consulted. First Minister, it's your duty to protect the Welsh economy from an extreme Tory Brexit. Why are you against giving this Assembly a say on trade deals?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:43, 6 February 2018

Well, this is a reserved matter for the UK Government, but I do take the view that for any free trade deal to be robust it has to have buy-in from all the different nations of the UK. I expect there to be full consultation in order for people to understand what effect a free trade agreement might have. I have never believed that free trade agreements are some kind of panacea. A free trade agreement can work with an economy that is similar to yours, and Europe is a prime example of that, where a free trade deal, enhanced as it is through the customs union and the single market, works well, but I do not believe it's in the interests of Wales to have a free trade agreement, for example, with New Zealand or Australia that allows the free flow of agricultural produce into Wales; that would destroy Welsh farming. I do not believe that a free trade agreement with any country where steel is produced far more cheaply is in the interests of the Welsh steel industry, and that I can promise I'll fight tooth and nail.

Photo of Leanne Wood Leanne Wood Plaid Cymru 1:44, 6 February 2018

But asking for consultation is weak. Why don't you go for the strongest option of demanding a veto? First Minister, on 17 October last year, I proposed that you should have a plan for all Brexit scenarios, including the prospect of leaving the European Union without a deal. You said then, and I quote—and you've just said it again:

'there is no mitigation for no deal. There is nothing literally we can do in the short term if we find there’s no deal.'

The External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee has published a report saying that the Welsh Government should be preparing for a 'no deal' scenario. They say that Governments, national and regional, have preparations in place for such an outcome—why not Wales? First Minister, those three words sum it up: why not Wales? There's a strong recommendation for you to start that work and report back in six months' time. Have you reviewed that answer you gave me last October? Are you going to draw up a contingency plan for a 'no deal' scenario, or are you going to leave the fate of Wales in the hands of the hard-right Tories in Westminster?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:45, 6 February 2018

The UK Government itself has no idea how to deal with this. I don't think the Scottish Government has a plan in place to deal with a hard Brexit, and as far as we are concerned—[Interruption.] Well, I think we've got to be careful here, because I don't want to give the impression, and nor does she, that, somehow, a 'no deal' Brexit is similar to any other kind of Brexit. It isn't; it's far, far worse than that. There is no way of mitigating the effect of the loss of a market to our farmers. There is no way of doing that. There is no market that will replace that. There is no way of mitigating the effect on the aerospace and automotive industries of losing their links with their European operations on the continent. There is no way of doing that.

So, my argument is not: 'Let's see what we can do to mitigate it', but 'Let's fight it.' Let's fight it. Let's fight it, tooth and nail. Let's say to the UK Government that a hard Brexit, building walls around the UK, turning our backs on our biggest market in Europe is not acceptable to the people of Wales and nor, I believe, to her party nor mine.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Leader of the opposition, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, last week, I asked you about the Permanent Secretary's inquiry into media speculation around the reshuffle. When I got back to my office last week, I had a written Assembly question come back from you acknowledging that you do, on certain occasions, use a private e-mail address to deal with diary issues and clearing urgent press lines. I'd be appreciative to know if these e-mails were made available to the Permanent Secretary's inquiry, and if this e-mail address was used at all to instruct or to brief staff as to press lines in relation to the reshuffle.

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:47, 6 February 2018

No. And, the answer to the first question is that all relevant evidence was made available to the inquiry.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Well, I'd be grateful if you could be explicit by confirming that your personal e-mail accounts were made available to the Permanent Secretary's inquiry, so that they could've been assessed by the person she appointed who, I believe, was the Welsh Government's head of security, I think, who undertook the inquiry. Can you confirm that access was given to that individual to your personal e-mail addresses that you do use for Government business, which you've acknowledged in your written answer to me?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

I can't comment on what the evidence looked like. All I can say is that all relevant evidence was submitted to the inquiry.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

I have to say, First Minister, I'm deducing that the person who headed up the inquiry did not have access to your e-mails that you acknowledge that you do use for clearing urgent press lines. Now, people would assume that any activity around a Cabinet reshuffle most probably would be urgent press activity, and it's not unreasonable to assume that, if there's an inquiry into leaks from Government, then all correspondence would've been made available to the person carrying out the inquiry.

Why is it so difficult for you just to say 'yes' or 'no', whether that information was given to the individual undertaking the inquiry? I would be grateful for clarity—crystal clear clarity—as to whether the inspector did have the ability to look into your e-mails. And if he didn't, will you be making those e-mails available so that they can, on merit, decide whether they want to enquire more into these matters?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:48, 6 February 2018

Firstly, it is a matter for the head of security to decide what he regards as relevant evidence. Secondly, any e-mail that is sent to me to my personal e-mail, which, in any event, is only accessed from a Government machine, is recorded. Any e-mail is recorded in that fashion. So, we know from the Gove judgment that any e-mail that's sent to a Government machine is subject to a freedom of information request anyway. And that is something that I know, but as I say, all relevant information was provided to the inquiry.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'd like to follow up the last question that was asked by the leader of Plaid Cymru a moment ago. She referred to this excellent report from the external affairs committee on how the Welsh Government is preparing for Brexit. In the Chairman's introduction to the report, as she said, there is a need for the Welsh Government to be doing more in terms of scenario planning, including a 'no deal' to prepare for Wales. Governments, national and regional and elsewhere in the EU, and the European Commission itself, have preparations in place for such an outcome. Why not Wales? If they can do it, why can't the Welsh Government?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 1:50, 6 February 2018

I have to say the leader of UKIP comes from a position of saying, 'It doesn't matter if there's a hard Brexit. These things are not important. Tariffs, non-tariff barriers are not important.' He suffers from the same misguided view as the leader of the Welsh Conservatives, namely that these things are not important. Well, they are important for Welsh farmers, because the Welsh Conservatives have never said how they will protect Welsh farmers if there are tariffs placed on their produce sent to the European Union. They have never said how the markets of the food and drink industry—90 per cent of which are exported to the European single market—will be protected. Our position is based on evidence, evidence that has been produced, for example, by Cardiff Business School and others, and not on wishful thinking.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

But the First Minister is still fighting the referendum campaign. My question was a practical one—that other Governments and regional Assemblies are doing something to prepare for the possibility of a 'no deal' Brexit. That will not come about, if it comes about at all, because of what the UK Government wants; it will come about because the EU will irrationally decide to cut off its nose to spite its face. But, the question I asked was a simple one. If there's a 'no deal' Brexit, obviously, there will be certain consequences that would differ from doing a deal of some kind, depending on the nature of that deal. There will always be problems of transition on leaving the EU, just as there were problems of transition, as I remember very well, when we joined the EU. So, it's not that it doesn't matter at all, it's just that, in the long term, economies adjust. I revert to my question, though: if other Assemblies of this kind and Governments throughout the rest of the European Union—[Interruption.] If his Members will stop chuntering, and the chunterer-in-chief in particular over there, then perhaps I can get to my question. I'm sorry to be doing your job, Llywydd; I didn't mean to.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:52, 6 February 2018

No, you carry on with your job, which is asking the question.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

Thank you. Exactly. Why is the Welsh Government not doing anything at all, so far as I can tell, to prepare for the possibility of a 'no deal' Brexit, to help Welsh businesses to cope with the transition period that is inevitable, whatever the outcome?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

There it is: the word 'cope' is used. 'Cope'—that's the whole point. A hard Brexit is a disaster. Sixty per cent of our exports go to that single market, 90 per cent of our food and drink exports go to the single market. The parties of the right try to ignore that: 'It doesn't matter'—wishful thinking—'we'll find other markets.' There is no evidence of that. Why on earth should businesses have to pay a price for what he said and his party said to the electorate? Why should they have to 'cope'? Why can't they prosper? Businesses will prosper if we remain inside the single market and the customs union.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

But the First Minister talks as though there is a world of certainty that we're in at the minute and we're about to go into a world of uncertainty. Anybody who's ever run a business, and I know the First Minister hasn't, knows that you have to cope with changed circumstances. 

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

Sir James Dyson, who runs one of our biggest companies, has said that uncertainty is an opportunity. [Interruption.] The opportunity, actually, is the rest of the world—

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP

—which is growing at a far greater rate than Europe. So, the opportunity is to export to the rest of the world and to capitalise upon that. What is the Welsh Government doing to prepare for the possibility of opening up other markets around the world, where the European Commission itself says that 90 per cent of growth in demand is going to come in future years?

Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour

Do you still want to be part of a common front with him and his party? I mean, that's one of the questions that, perhaps, people will want to ask. Of course not, given what he has just said.

Can I invite him to do something? He is a leader of a political party in Wales. Come to a hill farm anywhere in Wales, a sheep farm—the leader of the Welsh Conservatives can join him, actually, and get away from the Vale and his acres in the Vale—and go and talk to the farmers there, the sheep farmers, and say to them, 'Uncertainty is an opportunity'. Say that to them. I offer him the invitation, he can be joined by his political bedfellow over there. Go and talk to them and tell them they're worrying about nothing, moaning about nothing, and that, in fact, the reduction in their subsidies and the loss of their market is actually an opportunity.