6. Debate on the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee report: UK governance post Brexit

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:45 pm on 28 February 2018.

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Photo of Jane Hutt Jane Hutt Labour 3:45, 28 February 2018

Yesterday, we heard about the latest JMC(EN)—the European negotiations JMC— proposals about devolved administrations. It was disappointing to hear from the Cabinet Secretary—although he was wanting to be constructive and positive—when he said that they came to a JMC meeting and there was no paper in advance of the proposals, which, of course, are proposals that have a very unfortunate centralising intent with the power of veto over key devolved responsibilities. And, of course, that has led to us progressing with our continuity Bill, whereas the Cabinet Secretary was hoping that negotiations could lead us forward, so that would not have been necessary if our amendments, and indeed the amendments of the Scottish Government, had been accepted. But I think this is an example of why we have got to look at these inter-governmental relationships and how disappointing it is that they aren't more robust in these important times.

I will say—hopefully it's helpful—to give my evidence and experience of being a former member, as a Minister, of JMC Europe, which of course—and I think the Cabinet Secretary has also recognised this—has been a very constructive model. Because in terms of JMC Europe, which was a regular event that I attended with Ministers from the Scottish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and with UK Government Ministers, our officials all met well in advance of these meetings, agendas were planned and we often had trilateral and bilateral meetings before the JMC took place. And, of course, we were discussing issues like preparations for the forthcoming European Council and major issues where the UK Government was asking for our views, as devolved administrations, as to the impact of the agenda issues. I think there's a lot to be learnt from that. Why isn't that model being adopted for JMC(EN) as well—your all-important European negotiating JMC?

Also, I'd have to say that during our time as a member in Europe, often devolved administrations' Ministers were asked to go to EU councils. And even at one time, I remember being the only Minister available from the countries of the UK because there was a UK general election. So, they were very happy—the UK Government—for me, as an education Minister, to go to an education council on behalf of the member state, which of course was the UK Government. We must learn from that. Why can't we build on the good, positive, respectful relationships that were developed?

So, I just want to welcome the report, particularly the recommendations about JMC plenary. Not only must we strengthen it, but we must actually make it work. I think, yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary said it hadn't met for many, many months—meetings were postponed and not organised. This is entirely the wrong situation in terms of where we should be now. We need to make it function. All of the recommendations that the committee has made are so important in that it should have decision-making powers; it cannot just be a talking shop. It cannot be something—. There is much stage management, obviously, of these events, in bringing key people—Prime Ministers and First Ministers—all together, but it should have that kind of decision-making clout. It should have recourse to independent dispute mechanisms, adjudication mechanisms and arbitration as well.

I was very interested that, in the evidence from Rhodri Morgan—and I'm very grateful that the Chair put that acknowledgment of a former First Minister in his foreword—because Rhodri also said that there should be an independent resource-allocation mechanism, an independent mechanism in dispute over resource allocation. Well, of course that was critically important. Gerry Holtham said that was crucial in his recommendations in the Holtham commission. We know that in terms of dispute over resource allocation, that was crucial. Maybe you discussed that and felt that you couldn't go that far in terms of the committee.

So, I think 'Securing Wales' Future'—. Of course, we do often go back to that; it's not that long ago, that White Paper, which of course was developed between the Welsh Government and Plaid Cymru. It was very clear then that we needed a new set of robust, transparent and accountable relationships at UK level. And the Council of Ministers, of course, is the way forward, and of course our First Minister had already suggested that we should have that arrangement, that inter-governmental arrangement.

So, I would just say today that this is a cross-party report, which I'm sure we will endorse and there will be a strong backing from the Welsh Government. We are signed up to it; what about the UK Government? Where was the Secretary of State for Wales? How are you going to take—? How are we—? It's not just you; it's not just the Welsh Government. How are we as an Assembly, as a Senedd, going to ensure that this is taken forward? Of course, we can make the first step with securing a Speakers' conference to move forward these important recommendations in this report.