Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:05 pm on 7 March 2018.
Thank you very much, Jayne, for your statement today, and I look forward to the debate after the Easter recess. This has been such an important topic, not just for the credibility and integrity of this place, but other Parliaments and other public institutions as well, because if we can't be a beacon in this, I mean, you have to ask what we're for, in a way.
Just a couple of questions I wanted to raise with you. The first is: I don't think we should flinch away from this difference between the ministerial code and Assembly Member code. I don't want to reiterate what Llyr said, but, of course, every member of the Government is also an Assembly Member, and it can be confusing for an individual to know which of those two paths they should be taking. So, while I'm not suggesting for a second we interfere in the ministerial code, is there any place in our code that says, 'If your complaint arises in these circumstances'—so it doesn't define the complaint itself—'then, really, you should be looking at the ministerial code'? I appreciate that anyone can signpost to anywhere, but in this particular circumstance, where it can be one individual with two hats, I think there's a place, perhaps, in our code, for saying, actually, 'Go there if this is the circumstance in which your complaint arose.'
The second is, and you mentioned it in your statement: this policy is to prevent intimidation and harassment, and while many of us will have a fairly solid idea of what that might look like, even though we'd feel uncomfortable about reporting it, I'm hoping you can give me some reassurance today that you will also include in this definition this kind of repeated behaviour of tiny actions, which in and of themselves make it very difficult for somebody to complain. They either think they're being silly, but over a period of time, it can result in an individual becoming unhappy at work, perhaps feeling uncomfortable or unsure about their position. I think you know the type of thing I'm talking about—it's very difficult to define, and it's exactly the type of thing you'd feel daft about going to your boss about because you wouldn't have the evidence to support it. I don't know if you want to call it a pattern of behaviour, but if that can be incorporated somehow, I think it would cover a lot of situations, which, at the moment, can't see the light of day because it's very difficult for an individual to find a point on the ladder, if you like, at which they can take their first step. Thank you.